📅 Original date posted:2013-06-06
📝 Original message:On 6 June 2013 02:19, Peter Vessenes <peter at coinlab.com> wrote:
> So, this
> http://www.americanbanker.com/bankthink/the-last-straw-for-bitcoin-1059608-1.html?pg=1 article got posted today, noting that FinCEN thinks irrevocable payments
> are money laundering tools.
>
> I will hold my thoughts about the net social good of rent-seeking large
> corporations taking money from consumers over fraudulent reversals.
> Actually, I won't, I just said it.
>
> At any rate, it got me thinking, can we layer on revocability somehow
> without any protocol change, as an opt-in?
>
> My initial scheme is a trusted (hah) escrow service that issues time
> promises for signing. If it doesn't receive a cancel message, it will sign
> at the end of the time.
>
> The addresses would be listed by the escrow service, or in an open
> registry, so you could see if you were going to have a delay period when
> you saw a transaction go out.
>
> This seems sort of poor to me, it imagines that mythical thing, a trusted
> escrow service, and is vulnerable to griefing, but I thought I'd see if
> some of the brighter minds than me can come up with a layer-on approach
> here.
>
> When I think about it, I can imagine that I would put a good number of my
> coins in a one day reversible system, because I would have warning if
> someone wanted to try and spend them, and could do something about it. I'm
> not sure if it gets me anything over a standard escrow arrangement, though.
>
Also see satoshi's comments on this, though it may be restating what others
have said:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=750.0
"Here's an outline of the kind of escrow transaction that's possible in
software. This is not implemented and I probably won't have time to
implement it soon, but just to let you know what's possible.
The basic escrow: The buyer commits a payment to escrow. The seller
receives a transaction with the money in escrow, but he can't spend it
until the buyer unlocks it. The buyer can release the payment at any time
after that, which could be never. This does not allow the buyer to take the
money back, but it does give him the option to burn the money out of spite
by never releasing it. The seller has the option to release the money back
to the buyer.
While this system does not guarantee the parties against loss, it takes the
profit out of cheating.
If the seller doesn't send the goods, he doesn't get paid. The buyer would
still be out the money, but at least the seller has no monetary motivation
to stiff him.
The buyer can't benefit by failing to pay. He can't get the escrow money
back. He can't fail to pay due to lack of funds. The seller can see that
the funds are committed to his key and can't be sent to anyone else.
Now, an economist would say that a fraudulent seller could start
negotiating, such as "release the money and I'll give you half of it back",
but at that point, there would be so little trust and so much spite that
negotiation is unlikely. Why on earth would the fraudster keep his word and
send you half if he's already breaking his word to steal it? I think for
modest amounts, almost everyone would refuse on principle alone."
>
> Peter
>
> --
>
> ------------------------------
>
> [image: CoinLab Logo]PETER VESSENES
> CEO
>
> *peter at coinlab.com * / 206.486.6856 / SKYPE: vessenes
> 71 COLUMBIA ST / SUITE 300 / SEATTLE, WA 98104
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> How ServiceNow helps IT people transform IT departments:
> 1. A cloud service to automate IT design, transition and operations
> 2. Dashboards that offer high-level views of enterprise services
> 3. A single system of record for all IT processes
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/servicenow-d2d-j
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
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Melvin Carvalho [ARCHIVE] /
npub1uv…saxrt
2023-06-07 17:02:52
in reply to nevent1q…7myx
Author Public Key
npub1uvtfvcegcn9kds68r8he57emc480vqtx8t22kpsctxgjxae44gvsksaxrtPublished at
2023-06-07 17:02:52Event JSON
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"content": "📅 Original date posted:2013-06-06\n📝 Original message:On 6 June 2013 02:19, Peter Vessenes \u003cpeter at coinlab.com\u003e wrote:\n\n\u003e So, this\n\u003e http://www.americanbanker.com/bankthink/the-last-straw-for-bitcoin-1059608-1.html?pg=1 article got posted today, noting that FinCEN thinks irrevocable payments\n\u003e are money laundering tools.\n\u003e\n\u003e I will hold my thoughts about the net social good of rent-seeking large\n\u003e corporations taking money from consumers over fraudulent reversals.\n\u003e Actually, I won't, I just said it.\n\u003e\n\u003e At any rate, it got me thinking, can we layer on revocability somehow\n\u003e without any protocol change, as an opt-in?\n\u003e\n\u003e My initial scheme is a trusted (hah) escrow service that issues time\n\u003e promises for signing. If it doesn't receive a cancel message, it will sign\n\u003e at the end of the time.\n\u003e\n\u003e The addresses would be listed by the escrow service, or in an open\n\u003e registry, so you could see if you were going to have a delay period when\n\u003e you saw a transaction go out.\n\u003e\n\u003e This seems sort of poor to me, it imagines that mythical thing, a trusted\n\u003e escrow service, and is vulnerable to griefing, but I thought I'd see if\n\u003e some of the brighter minds than me can come up with a layer-on approach\n\u003e here.\n\u003e\n\u003e When I think about it, I can imagine that I would put a good number of my\n\u003e coins in a one day reversible system, because I would have warning if\n\u003e someone wanted to try and spend them, and could do something about it. I'm\n\u003e not sure if it gets me anything over a standard escrow arrangement, though.\n\u003e\n\nAlso see satoshi's comments on this, though it may be restating what others\nhave said:\n\nhttps://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=750.0\n\n\"Here's an outline of the kind of escrow transaction that's possible in\nsoftware. This is not implemented and I probably won't have time to\nimplement it soon, but just to let you know what's possible.\n\nThe basic escrow: The buyer commits a payment to escrow. The seller\nreceives a transaction with the money in escrow, but he can't spend it\nuntil the buyer unlocks it. The buyer can release the payment at any time\nafter that, which could be never. This does not allow the buyer to take the\nmoney back, but it does give him the option to burn the money out of spite\nby never releasing it. The seller has the option to release the money back\nto the buyer.\n\nWhile this system does not guarantee the parties against loss, it takes the\nprofit out of cheating.\n\nIf the seller doesn't send the goods, he doesn't get paid. The buyer would\nstill be out the money, but at least the seller has no monetary motivation\nto stiff him.\n\nThe buyer can't benefit by failing to pay. He can't get the escrow money\nback. He can't fail to pay due to lack of funds. The seller can see that\nthe funds are committed to his key and can't be sent to anyone else.\n\nNow, an economist would say that a fraudulent seller could start\nnegotiating, such as \"release the money and I'll give you half of it back\",\nbut at that point, there would be so little trust and so much spite that\nnegotiation is unlikely. Why on earth would the fraudster keep his word and\nsend you half if he's already breaking his word to steal it? I think for\nmodest amounts, almost everyone would refuse on principle alone.\"\n\n\n\u003e\n\u003e Peter\n\u003e\n\u003e --\n\u003e\n\u003e ------------------------------\n\u003e\n\u003e [image: CoinLab Logo]PETER VESSENES\n\u003e CEO\n\u003e\n\u003e *peter at coinlab.com * / 206.486.6856 / SKYPE: vessenes\n\u003e 71 COLUMBIA ST / SUITE 300 / SEATTLE, WA 98104\n\u003e\n\u003e\n\u003e ------------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\u003e How ServiceNow helps IT people transform IT departments:\n\u003e 1. A cloud service to automate IT design, transition and operations\n\u003e 2. Dashboards that offer high-level views of enterprise services\n\u003e 3. A single system of record for all IT processes\n\u003e http://p.sf.net/sfu/servicenow-d2d-j\n\u003e _______________________________________________\n\u003e Bitcoin-development mailing list\n\u003e Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net\n\u003e https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development\n\u003e\n\u003e\n-------------- next part --------------\nAn HTML attachment was scrubbed...\nURL: \u003chttp://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/attachments/20130607/c8a04aa5/attachment.html\u003e",
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