SaberhagenTheNameless
Saberhagen The Nameless
Even if Monero only ever served as an impetus to hasten sovereign privacy solutions for Bitcoin that just work...then it's still a net positive Until that happens 👇 XMR: 84mAJEgdihyRHkz8fGeuqgbQ19SuGeFWbhokJG2uMNMwTkDyoyQ3H7BijQNwSriSp9hHfaRGZYpCuKvHJwTer8av845U9py
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npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn Profile Code
nprofile1qqs27aqdrx96hwx8hqks53ccav65hvlk47dfscumsh22tncnw89t4pgpp4mhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mqpz3mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfduhph4g4
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2025-03-22T09:05:44Z Event JSON
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Last Notes npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Yea, it's made so much worse by combining th premine with PoS. On top of that it's claim to being a private Ethereum is weak once I realized token issuance is centralized to the token creator and lacks programmability. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Large verifiable premine. Even larger unverfiable premine from Boolberry. It's also proof of stake meaning de facto indefinite tax that mostly goes to holders of that premine. I think Beam does a much better job in every aspect above if someone wants a "private Ethereum" (potentially darkfi too whenever it's officially launched) #note1ppa…qq96 npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless I still think you have it backwards. Scarcity is the result of demand outpacing supply not the other way around. Fixed or less supply doesn't give something value by itself. We can easily see this by looking at coins with a fixed supply and less supply than Bitcoin like 42-coin, Quant, MKR, and Aave. There are many examples. There is obviously other things contributing to Bitcoins value besides it's supply (being first, largest network effect, auditability, security, etc - bitcoin has many advantages). There are unique one of a kind paintings from artists all around the world with a supply of 1 and no one values them. The list goes on. But we can just agree to disagree on this. All things equal I agree it's a fact that Monero requires more resources to run a node if it was the same size as Bitcoin, and that less users would run one if that was the case (for the advantage of privacy and fungibility). Monero centralizes faster. The question is will it actually ever manifest as a problem and will advancements in technology and cryptography outpace adoption? We can ask this same question about Bitcoin (the whole world wouldn't be able to use it right now without it becoming too large and centralized). So far it hasn't been a problem for either one. There are coins that exist like Grin and Beam that require far less resources than Bitcoin to run a node, even if they were the same size, because they're based off MimbleWimble. It's easier for users to run those nodes even on a phone. Does that necessarily mean Bitcoin is centralized or will be? I don't think so. It all depends on pace of adoption and technology, it's not a forgone conclusion, that is all I am saying. But I agree that Bitcoin has the advantage (and disadvantage) of being transparent and stronger confidence in auditing it's supply because of that. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless We're just having a friendly conversation. We disagree, that is ok, I still like reading what you have to say about both thats why I follow you. A scarce good is a good that has more quantity demanded than quantity supplied. Demand is required. You can have something with more supply than something else, yet the thing with more supply is more scarce because the demand outpaces it's supply because it is more desired/valued for various reasons. I'm not contesting that Monero eventually has more inflation than Bitcoin. I'm contesting your framing of scarcity which you seem to think only relates to supply (and erroneously imply that fixed supply alone = more valuable), when scarcity is a function of both supply AND demand. You say it's not only about storage capacity like SSDs, but I just also showed you bandwidth has increased 64x since Bitcoins creation. China is already rolling out 10 Gbps internet connection to the public. Well your exact claim was that no one can look up their own address and see how much Monero they have which is wrong. I wasn't saying anything about verifying for other addresses you don't own or verifying total supply because you didn't say that. In practice the vast majority of Bitcoin users are "blindly trusting" Bitcoins protocol because they don't run nodes and don't understand the code/encryption/math and other concepts behind it. There are ~21,000 nodes and 80-120million people who own/use Bitcoin in some form. Even assuming all those nodes are unique users that's ~0.03% of all users at best and even less understand what is going on. But I guess you are technically right and that is an advantage Bitcoin has. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Scarcity is a function of both supply AND demand. Bitcoin isn't scarce only because it has a fixed supply. You can have thing A with more supply than thing B, yet thing A is more scarce than thing B because it is more demanded. https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Scarcity-Fallacy npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless The massive differences that you aren't seeing or omitting is that “tail emission” mining is open to anyone, decentralized, predictable, and requires PoW. Just like gold. Would you call gold mining “fiat inflation”? Fiat issuance is permissioned, centralized, unpredictable, and does not require PoW, and is therefore arbitrary and not anchored to the real world. Why is it such a forgone conclusion that Monero nodes will be too large to run? Consumer technology has advanced exponentially faster than the Bitcoin blockchain since it's creation. More efficient cryptography has been progressing in the same time frame (i.e. bulletproofs reducing transaction sizes by 80%, zkSTARKs, etc) along with L2s being enabled with FCMP. "Mesmo rodando um node, você não pode jogar seu endereço na Blockchain da Monero e ver seu endereço bonitinho com os moneros e muito menos saber se eles realmente existem." This is incorrect. You can do that with your transactions. https://image.nostr.build/563fe6fae92d9f1459b7f4bc85978712a23a1b2c08bd389e681bad97f97a84e7.jpg npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless NymVPN, Kagi, and some ecash schemes for Cashu have, or are working on, blinded credentials which is a similar concept related to what you're doing (but yours is probably more ambitious) npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless I personally view democracy as just tyranny of the majority (and in practice often simply an illusion to hide the power and interests of a select few). But I do understand the pragmatism of making shitty things less shitty. So I'm not necessarily against your idea. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless I just find it hard to believe most governments would want to use this as it reduces their control. I think it is less about them thinking it is viable and more that the current systems works in their favor. I do think ZK voting is a cool concept and could be useful and valued for smaller organizations and communities though. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless I'm not talking about market caps. You're dodging the topic again. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless And how much of that is non-custodial and not on permissioned markets? Irrelevant for Bitcoins value prop. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless I get the idea for voting (if thats what you want) but how would that even work? You would need a centralized body to approve or reject KYC identities afaik which in themselves are based on IDs of specific governments. Who gets to decide? npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless You act like the average joe is actively using or thinking about Bitcoin in their daily lives 😂 Vast majority of the world prefers using stablecoins over Bitcoin. We're all in a bubble here buddy it's just a matter of how niche (and the relevancy of that niche towards its value prop) npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless No, my counter argument is it's being used in one of the most adversarial environments and free markets on the planet. Every white market transaction is permissioned - which goes against the entire point of Bitcoin. And the irony that you're parroting the same thing as legacy media and tradfi did about Bitcoin. How much of that almighty volume is made through permissioned white market exchanges and kept there? Sounds like tradfi with extra steps. LN is cool for smaller transactions, but how much volume can it do? Even if the hacker did everything properly to remain private on LN, it wouldn't be possible to push that much money into it on any sane timescale. And even if you somehow could, you wouldn't want to hold that much money on Lightning anyway. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless This sounds exactly like what media and tradfi were saying about Bitcoin in it's niche darknet market days. Now Monero owns those markets. Monero delisted from most exchanges. Europe now banning privacy coins. 3,520 BTC hacker immediately ran to Monero. Tom Woods, Tucker Carlson, Alex Jones, Dan Bilzerian talking about Monero. Monero notoriety just continues to grow. Streisand effect really is a bitch. I wouldn't be so quick to count that out. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Just removed you from the supply npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless It includes anyone who appreciates Monero (even if they don't use it themselves) and I've seen you say you think Monero is cool a few times before. Maybe I got the wrong impression. My bad if you didn't want to be on it. I'll remove you no problem. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Made a Monero follow pack 👀 In no particular order. Let me know if I missed you (or want to be taken off). I tried keeping it to only accounts that are somewhat active on Nostr (within the last year). https://following.space/d/ygm6vtdp3arx?p=af740d198babb8c7b82d0a4718eb354bb3f6af9a98639b85d4a5cf1371caba85 npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Wow! He figured out the amount he sent me AND the stealth address he created! How did he do that?!? 😂😱 #nevent1q…ytar npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Zeus is probably my favorite LN wallet for sure. It has a lot of privacy features other LN wallets like Phoenix lack. https://files.sovbit.host/c72ea9e0721011936a4e8aad62f9fc8515adc29fbfaab0af46f4813d133609d1.png npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless "Lightning "receiver privacy" is simply designed better." For the 5% who use it correctly, like you, sure you can make that argument (though there is a lot of nuance in each ones privacy as a whole and how it's used realistically) Most users that would otherwise be fully exposed to wallets like WoS and Strike are better off using Monero or even ecash (if they accept the rug risk) npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless First I want to preface by saying I never denied you could give me the info you did from a Monero transaction (you're obviously not a third party if you're making a transaction with me), nor did I claim I could give you any of the info you cherrypicked for me to give you. But that being said just for fun this is what I could find from the invoice: Network: bitcoin mainnet Amount: 0.00001054 BTC Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2025 10:10:30 GMT Payment Secret: 0c92761048337708ab93e6b8b284d926e5aec53bd7d074b8973920b91f3d4874 Payment Hash: b4db7a1b19961d115b39bfdf8a17de7459f121708265f2c2273d67287372a8fb Description Hash: r59andxz6kzyrxtwv76xw32q2prawep07ydyph96gleyt7nqj29q Expiration Time: 2592000 seconds Min Final CLTV Expiry: 19 Routing Info Public Key: 02e1dad4d396696cb207a524bdf595f1a2e6792d7b990f18cef1ebd1b557bb110f Short Channel Id: 0d67030009bc0000 Fee Base Msat: 0 Fee Proportional Millimonths: 2999 CLTV Expiry Delta: 34 Feature Bits: 000010000000100100000100000000 Signature R value: d4fd6e70ad921daf2aa31dce282cbdad7177d696f1ef87c4b043229e9325e4c1 S value: 4c10f860c8ec20dab8dfef12f8fd91fd2c0c9941a102ba89b6ced2605782e8c2 Recovery Flag: 0 Signing Data: 6c6e626331303534306e0d023ee2d00d03249d84120cddc22ae4f9ae2ca13649b96bb14ef5f41d2e25ce482e47cf521d0021a5a6dbd0d8ccb0e88ad9cdfefc50bef3a2cf890b84132f961139eb39439b9547d85c341d0bd9b4c2d58441996e67b46745405047d7642ff11a40dcba47f245fa60928a0300a278d00c003318a405c3b5a9a72cd2d9640f4a497beb2be345ccf25af7321e319de3d7a36aaf76221e1ace060013780000000000000000176e0044140608090400 Checksum: q7zqwk npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Where did I say that? 😂 Here is our conversation #nevent1q…86qn npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Why would I agree to that lol? You gave me the most difficult things to find and gave yourself what you know you can find (which I never denied, you wouldn't be a third party if you're making a transaction with me, so you can see the stealth adress you're sending to) I also have no doubt that you use Lightning privately and didn't contend that. You're Super Testnet the LN wizard. I said the average user is hanging with custodians and LSPs that can see a lot more than the best case scenario you were painting. But I will send you $1 for fun because I enjoy our frenemy discussions npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless If the recipient isn't encrypted on Monero then point to any of my transactions on it's blockchain. Should be easy since my Monero address is on my profile. Lightning nodes on a route (aka third parties) can see exact amounts passing through them. Nodes on Monero can't. Combine the above with the fact that most LN payments are routed through a handful of large hubs. Work out the implications of that yourself. ~90% of Lightning users don't enjoy almost any of the privacy benefits you lay out because they're using things like Wallet of Satoshi or Strike that see everything. Monero is better UX for privacy and it's by default. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Lightning (or any other L2) built on an encrypted blockchain like Monero would be superior. It would be way more feasible to enforce on-chain because fees will always be much cheaper on Monero thanks to tail emission and dynamic blocks. As a whole it's also better to build on an encrypted blockchain if your goal is privacy npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Yea, I won't disagree, if someone makes as many mistakes as the guy in this video (not masking IP address and using centralized exchanges) and everyone involved is colluding, Monero and Lightning probably aren't going to help much npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless There is no one holding money temporarily in this scenario. I think you misunderstood what I said. If person A pays person B, then person B pays person C for a good/service, the original sender A has no idea where their money eventually ended up. From the perspective of A, person B could have sent it to someone else, themselves, or it could have never left their wallet to begin with. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Sending your Monero to someone else, or another wallet you own, after you receive it is functionally no different from trampoline routing (besides the fact that it's done in a single step with the latter). In either case the sender doesn't know for sure where the money eventually ended up or if it was even spent to begin with. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Onde é que eu disse que o Liquid tinha mais que uma atualização? Está a destruir espantalhos por pontos que eu não reivindiquei. O que eu disse foi que foi atualizado, ponto final. Vejo que também não disse nada sobre a custódia. O Liquid não possui aquela que é provavelmente a mais importante das propostas de valor fundamentais do Bitcoin. As implementações do Lightning são atualizadas algumas vezes por ano — tão frequentemente como o Monero. Está a aplicar padrões duplos. Não há problema em a Liquid ter o seu próprio token, ou a Lightning ter atualizações, mas seria uma heresia se a Monero fizesse a mesma coisa. Refere "falsa equivalência" e continua a confundir BTC com Liquid. Não tem os mesmos princípios, segurança ou efeito de rede. Se um comerciante aceitar BTC on-chain (muito provável), não posso pagar com Liquid (muito improvável). Até o Monero tem um efeito de rede muito maior que o Liquid. Continuas a levar a nossa conversa de Liquid versus Monero para BTC versus Monero. Deixando de lado as discussões sobre preços, Liquid e BTC não são a mesma coisa. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Liquid *é* um token L-BTC completamente diferente. A federação *é* uma custodiante. Ela detém seu Bitcoin e você não. Teoricamente, eles ainda podem roubar seu Bitcoin. Seria justo dizer que a Liquid é melhor do que uma única custodiante, mas ainda é uma custodiante. Com Lightning e Monero nativos, não há custodiante. A Lightning e a Liquid não têm atualizações "constantes", mas ainda assim atualizam. E o Monero também não tem atualizações "constantes". Ele atualiza, em média, duas vezes por ano, no máximo, e está se tornando menos frequente ao longo do tempo. O que você quer dizer com "a Liquid é mais estável que o Monero"? Em que sentido? Preço em relação ao Bitcoin? Nunca questionei isso. O fato de essas coisas acontecerem na primeira camada do Monero é irrelevante, porque quaisquer alterações no Monero não afetam o Bitcoin. Da mesma forma, quaisquer alterações na Lightning e na Liquid não afetam o Bitcoin. Novamente, as flutuações de preço do Bitcoin são tão instáveis quanto as do Monero. Criptomoedas são conhecidas por sua volatilidade. A única coisa que importa é se você perdeu ou ganhou valor e qual o prazo relevante para o seu uso. Se você está usando algo para gastar, o valor a longo prazo é insignificante, pois você vai gastar esse dinheiro no curto ou médio prazo de qualquer maneira. E a quantidade de Monero que você tem para gastar é muito pequena comparada às suas economias em Bitcoin. E, como eu disse, você tem a mesma probabilidade de ganhar valor com Monero nesses prazos mais curtos quanto de perder valor, então isso se anula se você estiver usando-o constantemente. Se você acha difícil de acreditar, pode facilmente provar isso por si mesmo observando o par XMR/BTC. Eles flutuam. Na verdade, desde novembro do ano passado até os dias atuais, você teria subido mais de 40% se tivesse Monero. Há muitos exemplos disso em prazos curtos e médios. Novamente, faça o que quiser. Estou apenas contestando a exatidão do que foi dito, como eu o entendo, não dizendo para você fazer nada. Verifique você mesmo tudo o que estou dizendo. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Está a confundir tokens diferentes (como Liquid e Monero) com preço fixo. Para ser preciso, o seu principal problema com o Monero é que o seu preço não está ligado ao preço do Bitcoin, não que seja um token diferente (caso contrário, não quereria o Liquid). Está incorrecto ao dizer que Liquid é BTC. O Liquid é um token completamente diferente, sem qualquer ligação técnica ao Bitcoin para além do preço. Entrega o seu BTC a um custodiante e este dá-lhe um token Liquid que não tem qualquer ligação com o BTC, exceto uma promessa. É mais como um IOU. Tem um problema com as atualizações do Monero, mas ignora convenientemente que o Lightning faz a mesma coisa. Todos os seus problemas serão evitados se tratar o Monero como pequenas quantias para gastar e continuar a poupar com Bitcoin. Nos prazos curto e médio (os prazos de gastar dinheiro), o Monero tem consistentemente superado o Bitcoin, pelo que perder valor também não é algo certo. Faça o que quiser. Penso que algumas das suas abordagens e afirmações sobre estas coisas estão erradas, na minha modesta opinião. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless >"Ninguém guarda toda a sua riqueza em Liquid e Lightning (espero). São camadas secundárias, logo menos seguras que a primeira." Agora vejo que alterou os seus argumentos anteriores. Pode simplesmente aplicar a mesma lógica ao Monero. Não guarde a sua riqueza nele, use-o apenas para privacidade transacional. >"Sim, compreendo que em termos de rastreabilidade, o Monero pode realmente ser mais seguro (isto tem de ser comprovado ao longo do tempo)" No entanto, ainda usas o Liquid e o Lightning, que são mais recentes e menos comprovados que o Monero... Então vamos lá resumir. Passou de elogiar a "compatibilidade com versões anteriores" para "não há problema em não ser compatível com versões anteriores, desde que seja Liquid ou Lightning". Depois passou de "Não gosto de outros tokens para além do Bitcoin" para "Mas está tudo bem se o Liquid for o seu próprio token". Com todo o respeito, acho que precisa de reexaminar as suas crenças, pois existem contradições e "special pleading" em todo o lado npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Look at Bisq. Apparently they do. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Os seus problemas com o Monero são inconsistentes porque o Liquid também não é compatível com versões anteriores e um token Liquid não é Bitcoin. Além disso, o Liquid é custodial e o Monero não. Os motivos pelos quais a Liquid decidiu não incluir melhor privacidade são potencialmente válidos, mas tocam noutro ponto que é irrelevante para o que estou a levantar. O facto é que a tecnologia de privacidade da Liquid não é a melhor possível neste momento. Esta não é a minha opinião, é simplesmente um facto. O Liquid é definitivamente mais difícil de rastrear do que o Bitcoin on-chain, mas não impossível. Se o Monero for rastreável em alguns casos extremos, o Liquid é muito mais rastreável, uma vez que não tem stealth addresses nem iscos. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless O problema é que você ainda está expondo o gráfico de transações. Ele ainda é rastreável porque mostra a relação entre os endereços. Você ainda está expondo dados desnecessários, que são outro elemento que pode ser usado para identificação ou rastreamento, especialmente quando combinados com dados off-chain. O Monero é mais privado que o Liquid, oculta valores e também ofusca o gráfico de transações, e mesmo o Monero não é suficiente para proteger 100% do rastreamento em todos os casos. É por isso que eles estão atualizando para o FCMP++ para resolver esses problemas. Privacidade de conhecimento zero é o futuro E nem vou entrar no fato de que o pool de anonimato do Liquid é extremamente pequeno porque ninguém o usa e ele é tecnicamente custodial. Concordo com a última parte do seu comentário, e é por isso que você deveria querer torná-lo o mais privado possível para que seja mais difícil para os usuários cometerem erros de privacidade. Se você achasse que depende inteiramente do usuário, então o Liquid seria desnecessário e você simplesmente recomendaria o Bitcoin para privacidade. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Bottom part of the last panel isn't true. Bitcoin hasn't been attacked nearly as much as Monero in terms of delistings and bans. It's not a copy either. Different protocol and genesis block. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Well Luke has never given a timeline on Serai afaik. Cool, will give it a try when it drops. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless After this no upgrades to Moneros privacy will be needed for the foreseeable future. It will also include forward secrecy meaning even adversaries with a quantum computer won't be able to break it's privacy. Have you listened to Justin Berman on Monero Talk? He's directly involved and said he would be very surprised if it's not out by the end of the year which lines up with what Luke Parker has said. Even if you ignore that it's still closer than the forecast on BCH ZK privacy. Everyone I've seen in BCH says it wont be possible until at least 2026 if the upgrade passes and BCH doesn't even have hidden amounts or addresses yet. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless In what way specifically is it a bad idea? Optional privacy on BCH would face the same challenges, but I still think you guys should do it. Well, that's when the discussion of FCMP started, but it's been less than 2 years since it actually got put into motion. And considering it will be implemented before the end of the year that's pretty damn fast. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Btw it's way more than 1000. With FCMP every single transaction on Moneros blockchain going forward becomes your decoy. Huge improvement. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Just to be clear that's sender privacy for a single transaction (every additional transaction you make, or that uses you as a decoy, is exponential to your anonset) and was a theoretical attack discovered by a Monero researcher - not proven in the wild. Amount and receiver privacy remain zero knowledge and aren't affected by this either. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Fair enough, but it's delisted from Binance, the largest exchange in the world by far, and most others. Not sure what other coin is more delisted/unavailable/banned than Monero. Kraken is basically one of the few major ones left and only offers it in the USA and couple other places afaik. https://image.nostr.build/ff54add1384e772aa0cc7ee00ad54b3bae92317be908e2d20f8adfc51c07fe1e.jpg npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless You think a large influx of gold entering the market wouldn't affect it's price negatively? The fact that it is "there" doesn't matter until the market actually has access to it. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Yea Garnet is really out of date. There is a solution cooking up though 👨🍳 #nevent1q…z5gp npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless >"I opted out of inflation" >"if you want to try my wine you can buy it with Bitcoin or dollars" You don't accept Monero because of inflation, but you accept dollars because they don't have inflation? 🤔 Do what you want, but your reasoning is off Also Bitcoin is still inflating circulating supply for 100+ years until block subsidy runs out. You can't really say it doesn't yet. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless "XMR-BCH atomic swap web app 'AxeSwap'" https://monero.observer/mainnet-pat-releases-xmr-bch-atomic-swap-web-app-axeswap/ https://axeswap.net/ npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Is gold mining "stealing to pay miners"? If you think it's not, explain why it's different from Monero. Anyone can theoretically mine for gold like Monero, it requires "proof of work", and issuance is even more predictable than gold. If you say yes it is, you would have to explain why mining Bitcoin isn't currently the same thing as gold/Monero mining as it dilutes the current circulating supply in the same way. Fiat issuance is centralized, unpredictable, and requires no PoW. Gold, Bitcoin, and Monero dont suffer from any of those qualities. Bitcoin is in it's own category since it additionally has a fixed supply, but it would be incorrect to say gold/Monero are in the came category as fiat. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Bastyon is pretty dope. I have an alt account. Learned about it from @npub14sl…t5d6 npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless It's an example. They know the same thing about all your addresses whether you enter them in or not. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Agree. Miners aren't robbing anyone of anything when they mine whether it's Bitcoin or Monero 🤝 npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless It's inflating the circulating supply until the block subsidy goes away. More to dump on the market that wasn't available before which of course affects value for all current holders. I'm not arguing that Bitcoin doesnt have a final fixed supply. but thats 100+ years away, so you can't claim there is no inflation to circulating supply yet. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Whoa! A rare Bcasher on Nostr! npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless You already automatically share your data with google because you use a public transparent blockchain https://www.google.com/search?q=bc1qyxc4y0ala4kkmuxa96h25eq93zve3ddgdt3wsw npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Additional supply, that was previous unavailable, pouring into the existing circulating Bitcoin supply is going to affect the value of everyones Bitcoin. Sounds like inflation to me. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless @npub1w4u…0jr5 👀 npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Feel free to look at the updated stats. It's the same story every time. https://image.nostr.build/a95c3424a9bd4492a908c892279f4554380ea1e2e3d392087591c681ec58131e.jpg https://image.nostr.build/9e6b52277158beaea43e0bd10c31a8fbd1ca1c10a76e987b15c0dfbaf64cf276.png https://image.nostr.build/ff71d0aec3a490d1890a229d83873d67f5dec079cffee3f17e047b8d0f5fa7ae.png https://image.nostr.build/0fdb01da9f4e18f99cc7918ffc2c474d75823aea23e67ffe20ffdb5aed68c3e4.png #nevent1q…hewc npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Issuance is decentralized, predictable, and requires PoW. Exact opposite of the money printer and more like gold mining. Plus, Bitcoin still has an emission. Are all the miners currently robbing the value of your Bitcoin? They're technically inflating the current supply. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless 1. I think there is a face-to-face option on Robosats (obviously you wouldn't be "anonymous" but they also wouldn't know who you are either). Might be difficult to find a trade if you don't live near a bigger city. 2. Buy Amazon giftcards then sell them on Robosats. 3. You can do cash by mail on Bisq, then swap your on-chain coin for Lightning on Robosats. 4. Last way I can think of is sell something for Monero on XMRBazaar or MoneroMarket then swap the Monero on Robosats - To not dox yourself use a P.O.Box, proxy mail service, or simply don't put a return address. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Lightning payments offer pretty strong privacy if used correctly. Custodial wallets give you privacy from the general public, but not from the custodial provider. If you are going to use a custodial LN wallet you might as well use ecash. You can still be rugged, but at least you have privacy from both the public and the custodian. If you care about easy to use non-custodial privacy, with the security a blockchain provides, Monero is better. If not, use ecash. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless How would you do that? You have to show at least partial balances (amount of Bitcoin not relevant ot the transaction). And they can also see future balances when you inevitably consolidate for other payments. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless What about xpubs? npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Yea it was definitely inspired I won't argue against that. I would argue both XMR and BTC are different iterations of Bitcoin as a concept. Sorry if I strawmanned. My main point was if you bring up legality as an advantage, there is no difference since Monero is 100% legal in most places just like Bitcoin. The difference is privacy is default in Monero and it's up to the user to decide if they want to prove a payment to someone (and only to specific parties) and doing so doesn't reveal their balances to them and the world. Similar to cash. If I hand someone a $100 bill for payment they don't see how much money I have in my wallet. You also don't have to be anonymous, but you are by default. You can take advantage of the privacy alone for any specific transaction. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Monero has an entirely different protocol (cryptonote) and genesis block, so it's not a copy or fork of Bitcoin. If Bitcoin relies on transactions being "legal" it has already failed. But even ignoring that Monero transactions are also perfectly legal. You can also prove you paid someone on Monero as well by showing your TX key and TXID for any specific transaction. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless The only portion of Bitcoins economic activity relevant to it's value prop exists on black markets. Any transactions taking place on white markets are subject to the rules of a central authority so undermines the entire point. https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Permissionless-Principle npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless >" He's completely ignoring all the issues mentioned in my post. The cool thing about XMPP is that the end-user does not have to listen or obey external rules. While as this author is a bitch slave to Signal's board" Definitely one of the major benefits of XMPP. I have a few links saved criticizing pretty much every encrypted messenger/protocol. It's hard to sift through all the noise sometimes, whats true, whats not, what is a trade-off, that's why I like seeing what others like yourself have to say about it. Here is one against Signal: https://github.com/dessalines/essays/blob/main/why_not_signal.md#cia-funding npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless It's custodial, requires middlemen to transact, unauditable, completely surveilled up the ass, and closed source...but as long as it mentions "Bitcoin" somewhere 🤪 Really unbelievable the mental gymnastics and copium going on npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless "Monero has many downsides, but is a good privacy coin. I would never use it to stack my sats." You could apply the same logic to Monero as you do WoS. Except Monero is non-custodial, p2p, private, and open source. WoS is none of those. Look at all the fucking data they collect and share with third parties. It's insane. https://www.walletofsatoshi.com/privacy npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless https://image.nostr.build/9792d89270025333f88b247915e46932ac1cec531b9292d6d56cce11251b3e63.jpg npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Curious to know what you guys think about these criticisms of the current state of OMEMO+XMPP in this article. Valid? FUD? Conversations and Gajim are mentioned in it as being one of the most popular clients yet it's crypto libraries are way out of date supposedly. https://soatok.blog/2024/08/04/against-xmppomemo/ npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Odd. I see a lot of deflection, but no explanation why what I said is wrong 🧐 npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Liquid apenas esconde quantidades. Não esconde remetente e destinatários. Monero faz os três. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless "never know the supply" maybe take your own advice Wallet of Satoshi IOU fractional reserve user 🙄 npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Tudo o que você listou tem suas próprias desvantagens exclusivas Coinjoins são vulneráveis à análise de quantias e endereços são visíveis (quantidades e endereços são realmente escondidos no Monero, não meramente ofuscados) A rede Lightning é complexa de usar com privacidade forte e tem privacidade fraca do receptor. A maioria acaba usando carteiras de custódia por causa disso. A Liquid esconde apenas quantias, não remetente ou destinatário. A Monero esconde ambos e tem um conjunto de anonimato muito maior. Quase ninguém usa Liquid, então sua multidão para se esconder é muito menor. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Well, it's Nostr so there are way more Bitcoin conversations going on with the potential for that to happen VS the other way around. But it does happen the other way too. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless https://image.nostr.build/563fe6fae92d9f1459b7f4bc85978712a23a1b2c08bd389e681bad97f97a84e7.jpg npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Considering Monero is not even 1% of Bitcoins mcap, has a much smaller userbase, yet still regularly hover between 5-10% of Bitcoins transaction count demonstrates that it punches above it's weight as p2p digital cash npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Good overview of KYC exchanges, web browser fingerprinting, the academic weaknesses of ring signatures, and legal climate around buying/selling Monero I've never really thought about the legal paradox part. It gets more difficult to clearly define personal use VS business the more they continue delisting from exchanges. Interesting 🤔 npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless He's saying it would be more burdensome to run a Monero node vs a Bitcoin node all things equal. Which is true. But currently it's not difficult. The hypothetical he is putting forward sounds like a good problem to have (mass opting out) but likely will not ever happen. My guess is crypto (in the truest sense - not custodians, IOUs, exchanges, ETFs, etc that relinquish it's core value props) will continue growing, but always remain relatively niche since freedom, sovereignty, and privacy are also niche. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless >"Lightning network is more secure and private than monero." -Lightning only works as a hot wallet -Can steal from others if they go offline for an extended period -You can effectively make others lose money by force closing So definitely not more secure than Monero Privacy is debatable. It's easier for most to use Monero privately than Lightning. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Good points. Didn't realize you were a hostile direct competitor. I was genuinely asking because I figure you know more about this topic. I don't have a strong opinion on it mostly because I don't know enough about it. What intrigued me originally were that some elements of Nym *seemed* like an improvement over your typical VPNs at obfuscating traffic (mixing, fake packets, uniform size packets, multiple hops, etc - in theory). I know it's not a real replacement over Tor/I2P because of the censorship aspects you mentioned. I've never paid for Nym, and don't currently use it, but I've tried out the free version a few months back and it was noticeably slower at loading pages even with 2-hop. Some apps didn't work at all with it. I've not tried your software yet, but I will when I get a chance. Guilty on the Monero spamming 🤣 npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless If you have the interest and time you should do a deep dive on NymVPN/NymProject My first impression is it seems like many improvements over VPNs and even Tor in some aspects, but would be interested in your opinion 🤔 npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless When dark mode? 🕶 @npub1sae…kuqh npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless That's why I said not necessarily. Depends if you're using your own node. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Well in that case Lightning isnt necessarily p2p either. The hops between you and someone else you are paying isn't your peer. Unless you're directly opening a channel with that person which, let's be real, isn't the case for the vast majority of these transactions. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Don't really understand this either considering that Monero is usually the most traded currency on Bisq besides on-chain Bitcoin npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Not sure if I trust Zano because of it's unquantifiable premine from Boolberry swap + PoS = effectively a hidden dev tax if so. But we will never know. Also, with Zano you can only create tokens centralized to the creator and must trust them with issuance. Beam would be closer to a private Ethereum and more preferable since it actually has programmability and smart contracts. I've heard of SCRT network but don't know much about it. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless DarkFi will probably better for those things in the near-term and it's merge mined with Monero npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless I think for this particular implementation it would use on-chain Monero to fund the mint and receive ecash. Ecash itself is fairly anonymous with blinded signatures. Blinded amounts being worked on. No public blockchain. It would still be ruggable of course, like any ecash so I wouldn't keep much on it, but you would gain some useful properties/features that aren't possible with Monero (instant transactions, very high TPS, ability to peg to USD, no/extremely cheap fees, offline payments, etc) npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Will check out the video. Always thought client-side validation was an interesting offchain privacy alternative. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless FCMP is going to enable L2s Someone was working on an ecash impl for Monero if that floats your boat. Seems simple enough, but not sure on the progress. #note1qer…t4yr npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless >"I'm asking now why YOU don't only use Bitcoin?" Bitcoin isn't great for making private and cheap transactions (without introducing complexity or giving up sovereignty) It's like insisting on using a hammer for everything. Some tools are much better for other tasks. And lets be real it's not like you don't use shitcoins. I'm sure you use fiat the biggest shitcoin of them all. So the purity test has already failed for you anyway. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless You can post your wallets private view keys and all incoming transactions will be available for anyone to see how much Monero you have received. But right now outgoing transactions dont properly work. Outgoing view keys will be introduced with the upcoming FCMP upgrade later this year. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Hey @npub1w4u…0jr5, just bringing this to your attention, I think you can claim part of the Garnet bounty just get in touch with Plowsof "Is greenart7c3 aware of this bounty?" https://bounties.monero.social/posts/147/11-004m-garnet-maintenance-sync-upstream-new-icons-resolve-amethyst-dual-install-conflict-etc npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Sounds based. Privacy is non-negotiable for p2p digital cash. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless "Here’s how payments broke down last month: 🥇 #Monero: 67.9% 🥈 #Bitcoin: 30.4% ⚡ #LightningNetwork: 1.3% 💳 Fiat: 0.4%" https://xcancel.com/shopinbit/status/1899727450898075863 npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless Offtopic, just realized are you Pubky dev? That's badass been waiting for it to go public and give it a spin 🏄♂️ Any rough ETA? npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless >" I would prefer a private coin that is two ways pegged to Bitcoin than Monero" Putting aside the merchant adoption stuff, I think if it was basically indistinguishable from Monero, a lot of Monero users would also prefer this (because many are also Bitcoiners). Unfortunately it doesn't exist right now and there seems to be little consensus on the idea of something like drivechains. npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless My point is that a sidechain would have to start merchant adoption all over again from scatch. Compared to the last two attempts seems like a very tough uphill battle to get over the already existing network effect of the already existing privacy coin (Monero). npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn SaberhagenTheNameless There is a large discrepency between merchants that accept on-chain vs Lightning vs Liquid, etc are in practice very different even though they are all Bitcoin. The last two are extremely small and don't share the adoption of on-chain Bitcoin. Monero has arguably more adoption than Lightning, and definitely more than Liquid.