EthanTuttle
Ethan Tuttle

My write up on how #cashu #ecash like shares might he used for a #mining pool.
https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/ecash-tides-using-cashu-and-stratum-v2/870/20
#Ecash TIDES using #Cashu and #StratumV2
Recommended reading/References:
- Cashu ecash protocol
- ecash Proof of Liabilities
- Ocean TIDES
- Stratum v2 Spec (Sv2)
Goals:
- Auditability
- Small payouts
- Privacy
Using the Blind Diffie-Hellmann key exchange (BDHKE) from Cashu as a Sv2 Protocol Extension, a pool can provide auditable, small scale, private pool rewards in the form of eHash.
A hash provider (HP) connects to a pool and begins job negotiation. This aspect remains largely unchanged from current paradigms. However, the HP will also request the active block_keyset. This is a list of pubkeys as defined in NUT02, but the value amounts for the individual keys correspond to difficulty targets for various miners which is used as a share weight in the TIDES rewards. The unit for these keysets is left up to specific implementations. A block_keyset is rotated once the pool finds a block or when the network difficulty adjustment occurs.
When the HP finds a valid share, in addition to standard share data, the HP will generate a secret and send a blinded message (B_) to the pool. The inputs for this blinded message could be done at an individual ASIC level or as part of a farm proxy implementation, with the latter seemingly ideal for larger farms. This blinded message (eShare) would be included in Sv2 channel messaging as a protocol extension. This signals to the pool that there is a valid share and requests a signature using the appropriate key from the active block_keyset. The same blinded message could be reused multiple times as long as special consideration is given on the pool/mint side for tallying these submissions. Reuse of blinded messages may be necessary during implementation if computing these blinded messages is too costly for a given HP, otherwise a new blinded message should suffice and lower complexity.
When the pool receives an eShare, it first validates the share itself, as usual. Once validated, the pool signs the blinded message, completing the DHKE and providing the blinded signature (C_) back to the HP. This share + blinded signature are then added to the time ordered TIDES defined share_log. The HP retains the blinded message data inputs (x) and the unblinded signature (C) as defined in the Cashu protocol NUT00 1.
This share process continues until a new difficulty adjustment occurs, after which a new keyset is issued with appropriate difficulty targets, OR a block is found by the pool. A keyset rotation after a difficulty adjustment accounts for new share target difficulties. A keyset may be reusable across difficulty adjustments as a % delta from network difficulty.
When a block is found by the pool, a full list of shares and associated blinded signatures is published by the pool. This signals to the HP that the eHash shares are available for redemption. Now the pool references the share_log using the share_log_window (defined in TIDES) for what eHash is eligible for redemption. As HP’s redeem their eHash, the eHash is recorded alongside the public record of shares and blinded signatures as defined in the ecash Proof of Liabilities 5.
Redemption of eHash can be any of the available Cashu or ecash mechanisms appropriate for the HP.
Other thoughts:
Cashu supports spending conditions, such as P2PK (NUT10 1 and NUT11)
the blinded message secret uses hash_to_curve(x) computation which could be offloaded to an ASIC, maybe.
Since this is an ecash usage, Fedimint is also a viable option but has not been considered in depth.
P.S. I look forward to feedback and considerations I may have missed. This post was an effort to solidify my idea into something more concrete and shareable. A vocal (and probably less comprehensive/coherent) monologue of this idea can be found here. I hope to create a diagram to help illustrate this proposal.

2024-03-20 14:56:12

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🫂

2024-02-06 03:37:02

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based.

2023-11-17 17:29:21

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sounds like a pitch deck waiting for Ten31.
Do you have payroll experience?

2023-11-13 03:20:35

https://github.com/fedimint/fedimint/pull/3583
Want to use FROST to do nostr things? Try it out with the nostrmint module. Technical skills needed to get up and running.

2023-11-01 14:13:36

https://image.nostr.build/973529a87f37ade065d0a05559bd63f7a3a3d97f814c54ff44142d9dd9122e97.jpg

2023-11-01 02:51:41

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This is decentralization but rather redundancy. And yes, this is the fedimint model. There are multiple servers running fedimint and coordinating with each other to keep the mint "alive".

2023-10-23 00:05:37

Any good diagram on how FROST would work? Like a flow chart one?

2023-10-21 00:40:16

https://gist.github.com/LaurentMT/e758767ca4038ac40aaf
anyone savvy on this stuff and have more resrouces?

2023-10-17 19:08:41

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Fedimint is a federation ecash system (and can be much more since it's modular). Cashu is a non-federated ecash system. Both take in bitcoin and issue ecash notes. These ecash notes are 1:1 IOUs for bitcoin but use blinded signatures by the mint to preserve privacy. They also use LN for interoperability between other bitcoin projects/wallets/etc.
happy to go further if this wasn't detailed enough.
also check out https://fedimint.org

2023-10-16 14:43:09

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Fedimint uses something called a LN gateway. This is a LN node operator that runs a specific plugin/daemon alongside their node and can offer their liquidity to the fedimint. They're essentially a specialized client of the federation that deals in ecash<->LN contracts. If a LN invoice is given for internal to the mint, it just settles out ecash and the LN isn't touched.
I can get a bit more technical if you're LN tech savvy. or join the Discord and pop into #lightning to chat (chat.fedimint.org)

2023-10-16 14:40:09

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Thanks! The speed at which you can bank run with an ecash mint is blindingly fast.

2023-10-16 03:54:38

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> My most pressing question is what is being done to help educate new users about what these technologies do and how to use them safely?
This note. 😅 But seriously, it's one of my longer term goals is educating people on the topic and generally being a "developer advocate" aka professional tech shill. There's not a lot of content out there focused on it... yet. There's https://fedimint.org and https://cashu.space/ available for consumption and several podcasts on the topic. But as with anything bitcoin, there should be more podcasts.
> That’s a lot!
Definitely, that's why both ecash implementations have opted to do invoicing like lightning for payments and such. You can still dump `cashu...` notes everywhere but otherwise it can be just lightning style payments/interactions. @nprofile…2edj is doing big things on this front and with nostr.

2023-10-16 03:48:52

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1. because you want ecash? it's offline capabale. the data is the asset. You can receive it on a piece of paper. you don't want to manage liquidity. you don't want the latency of VPN/TOR. you have a service where you already custody users funds and want to provide a different privacy trade off.

2023-10-16 03:42:54

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offline payments.

2023-10-16 03:42:39

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no. some might disagree depending on your terminology. It's privacy preserving 1:1 bitcoin IOUs in a federation model. imho, that's not the coolest part though, it's the module system that enable you to have small consensus of servers on arbitrary data.

2023-10-16 03:41:26

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Trust nothing. The trust is based on the relationship between users and the fedimint guardians aka node runners. See here for a more technical answer about proof of liabilities: https://gist.github.com/callebtc/ed5228d1d8cbaade0104db5d1cf63939

2023-10-16 02:25:05

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#Cashu is one #ecash implementation. #Fedimint (what i work on part time), is a different implementation. Cashu is much more mature in its UI/UX so you're more likely to have encountered it. Especially here on nostr.

2023-10-16 02:21:56

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I don't work at Fedi but that's probably the app. Fedimint the open source project just hit versioned release at v0.1.2. Very new but has been in development for a long time. Fedimint is modular as well so not just bitcoin ecash. Working on making the Fedimint have an npub myself (very slowly).

2023-10-16 02:05:54

hi nostr.
I'm working on fedimint (thnx @nprofile…shpv ) and have general interest in ecash.
if you don't know what that means, what's your most pressing question? if you do, when was the last time you've checked in on the space? It's quite interesting.

2023-10-16 02:04:25

https://github.com/fedimint/ui/issues/101
"Gateway admin UI packaged as an LnBits extension"
@nprofile…qadu since you probably have a lot more free time now that you've defended your thesis. Any time to ponder on who might be a good help for this?

2023-10-12 15:11:50

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only somewhat. I do think ecash should have a specific symbol/emoji.
@nprofile…c8fu suggested 🔩 because NUTS + BOLTS = ecash
Where did you derive you icon from?

2023-10-10 17:36:01

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let's make fetch happen.

2023-10-10 16:56:02

https://git.v0l.io/Kieran/snort/pulls/648#issuecomment-3620
🔩
@nprofile…2edj ?

2023-10-10 16:28:14

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https://git.v0l.io/Kieran/snort/pulls/648#issuecomment-3620

2023-10-10 12:18:26

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Fedimint modules could enable swaps points. 🫣

2023-10-08 03:46:41

https://github.com/EthnTuttle/awesome-ecash
@nprofile…p2kw @nprofile…2edj @nprofile…qadu
and @nprofile…70d7 since you like lists of things.
Ecash.Review
Do you have the domain yet?

2023-10-07 14:27:09

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Nothing is secure from agencies. They own your device if they want. The telecoms own all mobile devices. Once you have the keys from the device, decrypting e2e comms is trivial.

2023-10-07 14:26:00

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Fair point on the technically competent piece but I point back to wifi. That seemed unobtainable to many for a number of years and is now ubiquitous. You now longer have to get some external card to slide into a slot on your laptop to get wifi. It just works ™️
You point presupposes that humans won’t learn and adapt to using new technology over time. I disagree. The motivation to learn the tech or to abstract the tech to simpler UX exists and grows with time.
Look at bitcoin itself. You used to have to run CLI commands to interact with the network. Now…

2023-10-06 19:22:16

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Why can't ecash be for payments? I personally wouldn't want large amounts of long-lived amounts stored in a fedimint. The former reducing overall rug risk and the latter reduces the chance of inflationary practices (aside from running a client that validates the version of fedimint run by guardians).
Fedimint doesn't explicitly have to be a "bank", although, admittedly, that's been a advertised use case from louder voices than mine own.
Laying out an example:
I'm visiting LA. I somewhat know people in the area, maybe I'm visiting them. There's a smaller network of merchants that participate in a fedimint. Similar to handling cash, they don't keep large amounts in the drawer (in the fedimint). Just enough to do business of the day. When i arrive, I can peg-in (on-chain or with LN) to the fedimint and now have ecash to spend. Each merchant and myself don't have to mange LN nodes and the complexity inherent to it.
Another:
Remove the ecash/BTC/LN modules and insert a password manger or any other arbitrary data. Since the data is validated via consensus among fedimint nodes, the risk and access is distributed. It enables the syncing and validity across disaggregate nodes.
I personally would love to auto-sync my bitwarden instance between home and office servers. I understand there are solutions to that with some automation, but fedimint could offer this out of the box for the less technically inclined.
Myriad of solutions and fedimint could be one. Definitely not the end all be all, but i have to pick something to focus on with my limited time. 🫠

2023-10-06 13:40:56

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Are you aware of the Hawala network?

2023-10-04 15:30:57

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1. And now most of the world trusts banks with their "money" (currency really). I don't think this paradigm will go away and making people comfortable with the personal responsibility of holding all of your wealth yourself will take a long time. In the meantime, custodians are going to exist. Giving people a privacy preserving trade off for a custodian seems a good way to move toward a better future, while we educate the masses on self-custody and personal responsibility.
2. Agree with all of this. Trade offs always. There is going to be complexity with any technology until there's not. It used to be super complex and require lots of people to run mainframes, and now we have super computer in our pockets. The more time passed, the more abstracted away from electrons on a motherboard we get. Even 10 years ago, managing a single bitcoin wallet was a super technical task, but today I can download an app to my phone and hold the keys to some coin.
3. I get your point here and don't disagree. This is why I dedicate my free time to working on a solution that I think will help adoption of bitcoin. The "coin" with the best tools will capture more economic share. I hope you're building your ideal future as well. (Personally, I think ETH will be what they build the CBDCs on. All the code and infrastructure is there for the State to scoop up.)
likewise, thanks to you for the reply.

2023-10-04 03:12:32

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I have no writing on drivechains, but I won't be considering them until mining is more decentralized. Hopefully Stratum v2 will help this along, then I can consider putting more economic weight onto mining. The mining ecosystem seems ripe for State capture with the trend toward centralization (look at the three biggest mining pools). Adding drivechains now, (which enable "crypto" tokens, to my understanding) seems like it would draw more attention from the State, given all the recent crack down on crypto more broadly. Landing Sv2 can help disperse the mining risk before we add some other reason for the State to crack down. Maybe in a decade, I would consider drivechains seriously and do more research. For now, I am crunched for time and bandwidth so plan to focus on things I can build now that are helpful.

2023-10-04 03:05:25

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> A fedimint of a group of 5 is also liable to the risks of 5 peoples lives.
There is a threshold quorum to move funds? so the majority of these 5 would have to collude to aid the one child.
> The whole basis for fedimint is based on an anthropological error made by wealthy westerners AND wealthy disconnected Africans about the people they are trying to help.
I don't claim to understand any culture other than my own (western), and even saying that would be a stretch, so your assertions of other cultures outside of western culture may or may not be accurate. However, it does seem that you're only considering one use case of fedimint and not other cases. It's a modular system that can be extended to custody and reach a threshold consensus on arbitrary data. Taking custody of bitcoin is only the default use case. I anticipate many more to be developed.
Multi-national corporations can custody their money and data across jurisdictions in a secure way. Market providers can build an entire ecosystem around their market with modules to customize how the marketplace works. Offline payments with ecash open up a whole heap of other use cases, for example, I only accept communications with valid ecash attached to them.
-----
we already covered the writing critique in another thread. 😅

2023-10-04 02:51:47

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When you say "most people feel this way", what part of the world are you referring to?
What downsides are you referring to? please elaborate. There are plenty of trade offs in all things, but if you're more specific, I can better address the concern.
In your last paragraph, are you referring to another "coin" aside from bitcoin? It reads like you are but you're unspecific. Also, the ad hominem attack doesn't help convince anyone. Give me real arguments. What coin are we waiting for network effect to increase? The market has been pretty clear on what it values the most at the moment.

2023-10-03 22:28:59

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Not my site. 🤷‍♂️ sorry. @npub1p4k…cxf8

2023-10-02 22:21:45

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bank run not because there are no funds, explicity to audit the fedimint. Since this can easily be coordinated and executed, there is risk to fractionally reserving. See here for more on the Proof of Liabilities thoughts (not mine)
https://gist.github.com/callebtc/ed5228d1d8cbaade0104db5d1cf63939
I have no idea how XMR works, but it could probably be integrated using the fedimint module system.

2023-10-02 17:56:31

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You chain that bike up?

2023-10-02 17:50:28

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Taxis?

2023-10-02 17:49:54

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Use LN to connect between the families/communities.

2023-10-02 17:43:27

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Have you ever given your car keys to a valet?

2023-10-02 17:42:53

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Correct. Don't trust complete strangers. Don't use a fedimint run by complete strangers.

2023-10-02 17:35:18

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Not many people have the ability or the knowledge to audit all the code they use. At what point do you stop auditing and start trusting? How do we define that point? Surely it differs for everyone. For instance, I don't know C++. I have not audited bitcoin core in depth. Nor many other apps running on my laptop.

2023-10-02 17:32:38

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I've seen this but don't understand the contextual reference to it?

2023-10-02 17:28:53

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Do you audit the compiler code that runs on your devices? Or any other aspect of your stack? Trust is how we scale technology. The term "standing on the shoulders of giants" comes to mind.
Also, the articles are not long...

2023-09-30 23:38:49

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Incentives matter. Drivechains break incentives.
Layers can and will happen. It’s one of the best ways to scale.
https://trustisascalingsolution.com/

2023-09-30 23:30:43

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Correct.

2023-09-30 23:28:23

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ecash will augment this tech and enable even more privacy on bitcoin

2023-09-30 00:52:27

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heh. I only use the mprocs interface. I am CLI proficient but not a native.
I think the aim of the UI would be to make the barrier to entry lower, but also to be an educational tool. (i.e. a tooltip to show the config that lightningd uses to connect to bitcoind)

2023-09-27 16:51:48

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Nothing in LN is trivial.

2023-09-27 16:04:09

How do I build an email client that can add ecash to an email header? Is this old thing new again?

2023-09-27 15:59:23

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Ecash fixes this.

2023-09-27 04:22:41

Poolimint
Naive impl.
The block template coinbase is derived as a peg-in deposit address. The pool software acts a Fedimint client to generate this. Then the pool handles the payout of ecash to the miners.

2023-09-27 03:14:12

I would love to take devimint, fully daemonize it, the shove it into the backend of a Tauri app (https://tauri.app/) and then steal Polar's nice UI (cc: @nprofile…xf4z ). Wonder how nix plays into this? (cc: @nprofile…ed2z )

2023-09-25 16:56:23

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Fedi is a company. Fedimint is the open source project/protcol. You should join the Fedimint Discord. chat.fedimint.org
I think a neutral place to discuss ecash UX in general could develop over time, but would be good to has out the technical differences that exists between cashu and fedimint.

2023-09-25 16:47:46

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Can we get an ecash UX working group together? Would love to learn from the @nprofile…2edj to make sure fedimint does similar.

2023-09-25 15:25:20

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no worries. I'll be shitposting about fedimint protocol here.
@nprofile…a5pl how can I get on the inverse blue check train?

2023-09-25 02:57:27

@nprofile…lf37
Get 3 alerts. "no relay responded in 8 seconds" or something similar. Assume note not posted. Go to other client. POSTED NOTE THREE TIMES.

2023-09-25 02:56:20

@nprofile…dpvr
WHO DO I HAVE TO ZAP TO GET THAT NIP:05?
please come to fedimint discord, need moar frenz. chat.fedimint.org

2023-09-24 03:56:49

https://github.com/fedimint/fedimint/pull/3284
Fedimint module flowchart
https://m.primal.net/HLti.png

2023-09-22 20:01:31

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Is this using nut12?

2023-09-22 15:17:00

GM. Ecash is a scaling a privacy solution for bitcoin.

2023-09-17 02:57:37

How do I get a telegram account without a phone number?!?

2023-09-16 18:55:15

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👀

2023-09-16 18:38:48

I want to pick three node in a boxes to bundle Fedimint and gatewayd for.
1. Start9
2. Umbrel
3. ????
Thoughts?
Please share for viz

2023-09-15 21:10:07

https://bitcointv.com/w/gXuKzcErKxWDv3KKBHZSbA
Bitcoin developer tools suck, Devimint fixes this

2023-09-03 01:17:58

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Safu from who?

2023-09-02 18:58:10

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Fedimint is similar to lightning. There are no code changes so it’s just a matter of getting the software to a stable state for handling real money. I foresee adoption growing steadily over time, like the lightning network.

2023-09-02 18:57:00

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There is nothing stopping someone from running on mainnet now but it is not recommended.
There are release candidates being iterated in right now. If you’re technically savvy (Linux CLI), there’s a script in the Fedimint GitHub for running on MutinyNet (a custom signet with decent activity).

2023-09-01 16:33:59

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Repurposed to another project == Fedimint?

2023-08-31 19:02:18

https://bitcointv.com/w/mdPgH8o4UugLpHdkxAHnMF
Today's Fedimint Deep Dive went over the nix dev setup the project uses. We didn't finish the whole thing but join us next week during the Deep Dive (Thursday at 12pmET) for the conclusion.

2023-08-31 04:00:24

poolimint - nostr is the accounts? Then ecash can only be “unlocked” with nsec. Maybe a proxy in front of the fedimint for actual pool software? Pool software gets main coinbase address from the fedimint. Shares are submitted as usual, and tallied up. Reward total is passed in from the pool to the fedimint so the respective npubs have their share according to pool rules. Ecash redemptions can be made by verifying ownership of said npub.

2023-08-30 16:29:05

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What problem would this disclosure fix?

2023-08-27 14:39:31

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Ecash now has specific meaning and context. There are currently two ecash implementations, Cashu and Fedimint. They allows users to obtain 1:1 bitcoin for privacy (via blinded signatures) preserving ecash notes.
The origins stem from David Chaum.
Ecash is a privacy and scaling solution for bitcoin.

2023-08-27 14:33:59

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🫂 🤝
Great idea.

2023-08-26 04:36:57

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Inspirational.

2023-08-26 03:51:14

https://app.skiff.com/docs/aad449f0-9ef8-47ad-b37f-6967c4f1db86#K5exqzIq5qmqGCIKk%2BHvYiMNK%2BApATTWtF3OiK%2Btd4g%3D
What nodes should I package fedimintd for?

2023-08-26 03:44:34

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I think with the modularity, people will use them for a number of reasons.
There will almost certainly be a market for gambling to run atop fedimint. But now the poker chips ARE actually as good as money, and you always know they return to you eventually, or you keep a cut.
Or gaming companies that can embed ecash as data objects in games for players to find or win and immediately reissue for real money.
All redeemable on chain or over lightning with complete privacy.

2023-08-26 03:40:03

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Fiat folk can't afford one SBC per microservice. 😆

2023-08-25 13:52:26

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https://www.thrillerbitcoin.com/trust-talk-with-paul/

2023-08-25 13:52:11

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Security is all trade offs. Where are your keys stored? How do you secure those? Do you trust someone else to safeguard them? Not many people live completely alone or trust no one. Community based trust has and will always exist.
That is the scale of focus for Fedimint. If the small stack means a lot to someone, then it would be recommended they not put that in someone else’s trust.
But coming back to the topic at hand, if someone values a swap into XMR more than that stack, a module that enables swaps makes sense.
Nothing is absolute. You trust someone along the path of using bitcoin. It’s how things scale.

2023-08-25 04:32:21

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security is all tradeoffs. what convenience feature are you willing to trade for sovereignty of a small stack?

2023-08-25 03:34:20

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nvm. gotta stay humble and stack sats.

2023-08-25 02:59:26

Talking to my co-worker XMR bro, wicked smart guy. Tell him about fedimint. "Oh, it has modules." "Yea, it's transaction in and out at the core protocol" "So it could do swaps for Monero"
Got me thinking a bit. Plebs want sats. Many plebs want more sats. Monero bros wants more XMR. XMR is 'easier' to mine and can be done on CPU by design (last I understood). Plebs have CPUs more than they have ASICs. Plebs min XMR, bring to a fedimint and swap for ecash. Monero bros come to fedimint and swap sats for eash. Plebs get sats. Monero bros get XMR. Monero gets more TX volume and mining. Arbitrage opportunities abound.
Is this shitcoining? What if it unlocks some pleb level arbitrage with just a Fedmint module to swap XMR for ecash? Is the what it's like working on a permissionless protocol?

2023-08-24 04:19:34

https://blog.start9.com/running-startos-on-apple-silicon/

2023-08-24 04:19:31

https://blog.start9.com/running-startos-on-apple-silicon/

2023-08-23 22:41:19

https://blog.start9.com/running-startos-on-apple-silicon/
Well this is pretty neat...

2023-08-23 19:12:39

@npub1pp3…8nu7 is there an ecash spec somewhere? Seems like having published specs on handling ecash tokens would be helpful

2023-08-23 13:36:58

https://cryptome.org/jya/digicrash.htm

2023-08-23 13:32:08

https://nakamotoinstitute.org/finney/rpow/index.html
"Using RPOW tokens for email would have advantages, as people could then reuse tokens from incoming email in outgoing email. Spammers will have no such advantages since almost all of their email is outgoing. Reuse allows the cost of the POW token to be much higher since most people won't have to generate them, making the system more effective as an anti spam measure."
ecash can be RPOW.

2023-08-23 13:28:06

https://gist.github.com/AdamISZ/28c3475734becf031c9924f0b50d1bed
Interesting read on ecash. Good linked references as well.

2023-08-23 12:22:16

Fedimint allows you to spread risk of rug pull across multiple entities. In addition, it can provide you privacy. Not all custodial solutions can say the same.
note17q92hkm88jhguz3hllhn3z0usv0npf3nnufes7n8xpnup4r2ynrscqwglx

2023-08-23 01:51:26

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One day you’ll be able to talk to your Fedimint using nostr. The Fedimint itself will have an npub.

2023-08-22 22:20:48

It seems that there will be a market that could develop around "L1 insurance". Where a large capital allocator collects on "insurance" and promises you exit support during times of congestion/high fees where an average user cannot afford to exit from one of the aforementioned "bitcoin banks".
Inspired thought by: https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/thoughts-on-scaling-and-consensus-changes-2023/32

2023-08-22 08:29:58

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Yes. There is a client secret that has to be managed that can allow you to recover ecash using derivations but that default assumption is a client will manage and store the ecash data.

2023-08-21 18:55:07

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that's a starting point but we're not there yet for using real money.
Be on the lookup for some announcements soon though... 👀

2023-08-21 18:54:31

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https://github.com/fedimint/ui

2023-08-21 18:53:59

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from a simple explanation: fedimint clients connect to one (or several) websocket JSON rpc endpoints and interact with the fedimintd. Users with LN nodes will want to talk to gatewayd too if they're interested in providing LN liquidity to the federation.
Keep me in mind if you ever want to chat fedimint.

2023-08-20 13:47:15

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I’m here for the ecash content.

2023-08-20 13:12:44

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Seems neat. I’m here for when the Fedimint integration happens.
Never used CLAMS. 🤔