shutosha

Totally blown away with speed and interface of #gossip - a #rust based #nostr client for #Linux #Mac and #Windows (I guess) ..
Testing on a 2009 Desktop running #Debian - blazing fast even on an old machine

2024-06-28 02:05:56

- reply

Someone should publish SPY, GLD, Mag 7 and DJIA denominated on #bitcoin .. refresh on hourly basis ..

2024-06-26 23:27:10

- reply

Yakihonne and Habla are web clients .. don't think they have a native app for windows or Mac or Linux ..

2024-06-26 21:42:13

- reply

That is a heart break .. but the point is longform content ( markdown ) ..no one would ever write on the web ..or on a phone ..
So not much of a loss ..
And we don't need another editor ( native nostr client ) .. all we need is plugins

2024-06-26 21:39:18

- reply

Nope ..
On web I have tried Yakihonne and Habla ..both are promising but the point is you don't write long content on a web client .. everyone has their own editor .. and little cave to write in ..
I ended up doing cut/ paste .. from vim to Yakihonne but it is what it is .. bad !
Btw ..I am not asking for a dedicated native client ..cuz then you will end up doing one for windows , another for mac and thousands of Linux distros ..
All we need is plugins to push content from popular editors to nostr ..
Eg Vimnostr plugin .. notionNostr .. logseqNostr .. I guess some people still write in Word :-) ..

2024-06-26 02:53:19

#Bramh is the entirety of information held in infinitely vast number of relationships amongst the manifested - animate or inanimate - living or lifeless. The definition of Bramh, however, goes a little further in #Vaidik science.
It is believed that the Bramh is our own true reflection. It’s a universal mirror that shows us who we are. Universal mirror because a regular mirror is just a two-dimensional reflection of our physical being. Bramh reflects on us through millions of dimensions.
More granular our self-image, greater the conscious experience. #Siva is the peak of such conscious experience - an end state where we see objective reality and thus achieve ability of discretion - ability to recognize singular “Truth” from all the false claims. In Vaidik science Siva is regarded as truth (Satyam Sivam). What #Siva comprehends as objective truth is known as #Vishnu

2024-06-26 02:32:04

- reply

Really .. why would a fraudster set up shop on #nostr .. I mean she can hunt easily on X or insta ... as regards to curiosity ..yes .. but that seems like a feature ..not a bug

2024-06-26 02:28:08

- reply

Why would anyone do that .. One should borrow fiat to pay taxes :-)

2024-06-26 02:25:56

- reply

#bitcoin wallets need to provide an optional setting - to display a part or all of your #utxos on #nostr profile
.. the best form of authentication as well a measure of your #bitcoin faith ..

2024-06-25 19:11:56

I the physical world - we wear #gold jewellery.. its a symbol of wealth ..
In the digital world .. people will display their #utxos ..

2024-06-25 19:10:23

- reply

So I am tempted to block all the signed news with hash or whatever .. blockID .. like a time stamp on a block of news .. ten minute ..

2024-06-25 19:07:39

Chai ..
#nevent1q…7t5d

2024-06-25 18:55:37

- reply

The biggest news ofcourse is arrival of a new Bitcoin block ..

2024-06-25 18:31:22

- reply

#onlyNostr ..

2024-06-25 18:29:58

- reply

Markdown is html .. html is Browser .. nostr clients should parse html ( and thus markdown ) .. its like a no brainer ..

2024-06-25 18:28:15

- reply

Hyperbole :-) .. disagreement accepted .. but it is a big deal .. isn't it ?

2024-06-25 18:25:12

- reply

Removed ?? Why ? .. I mean the whole point of posting on nostr is it takes markdown files ..

2024-06-25 17:13:32

# Newschain
- is a nostr longform. Refrences all the human actors ..
- sends a notification to all the human actors. Invites them to sign the note.
- when everyone signs. It becomes next block of news chain.

2024-06-25 16:39:48

- reply

View from #Amethyst .. it played nice.. #Damus wake up .. https://image.nostr.build/8db800d4666ec18d94e89a9e3bec467ff79f233466b932c30f8d612d4cc6dd0c.jpg

2024-06-25 16:33:37

- reply

*that worked*
**How about this**
***And this***

2024-06-20 19:30:25

Looks like Google is back into social... and it wants me to follow .. https://image.nostr.build/fd526a6b8129cac3c8e4f22130e37d4cc837cb6e85d925b3e30a91c5914628ff.jpg

2024-06-20 17:07:08

Instead of buying hoardings or ad spaces ; he bought the global public square .. one time investment !

2024-06-20 03:17:08

- reply

Only bitcoin can suckup the compute and energy .. that would otherwise go to AI .. bitcoin must offer better returns ...
If AI won , humanity is on a coin toss ..

2024-06-20 03:14:11

Time has come for #anarchists and #libertarians to rethink their #bitcoin messaging ...hate vs hope ..
Because the down side is #AI hype can get real if #bitcoin failed to capture the mind share ..

2024-06-20 03:10:24

- reply

It is not entirely bad .. if gold price increases ..it means #bitcoin is discounted ..
One kilo gold price is a natural physical barrier for bitcoin .. why would I buy digital gold if I can get real in less ..

2024-06-20 03:06:44

People love investing in #bitcoin when they are hopeful of better days ...
When they are scared , they turn back to #gold

2024-06-20 03:01:00

- reply

Keep a book on abstract algebra handy :-) ..

2024-06-20 01:36:45

- reply

Start looking at them on yearly basis .. daily review is a bad idea .. observations have costs ..

2024-06-19 01:10:10

https://postmarketos.org/blog/2024/06/16/v24.06-release/
#nostr clients ..keep in mind ..

2024-06-17 18:30:18

- reply

That is true but it is not necessarily a bad thing .. #bitcoin is for everyone - lots of people find it hard to custody their coins .. frankly - it is harder than gold self custody .. and for smaller gifts , #btc is lot costlier to transport than transporting a #gold gift ...

2024-06-17 18:23:41

- reply

One for me please !

2024-06-17 18:07:40

- reply

Apple intelligence killed nostr #mathNotes :-)

2024-06-17 17:56:11

#nevent1q…lxs7

2024-06-17 16:23:38

When you post a video on #YouTube , you are selling your data to #Google for clicks and views ..and likes. Don't crib if Google now uses or sells your data. ..
When you post content on #nostr , you own your data .. people can still give you views , clicks and likes ... even #zaps ..

2024-06-17 00:42:08

- reply

Bitcoin nodes are aliens ..
their only weapon - a perfect ledger :-)

2024-06-16 03:02:14

#CBDC won't happen because #Banks don't like them .. instead banks want to custody #bitcoin for their individual and corporate clients .. just like they custody their #fiat .. and again leverage the holdings .. with 10 % reserves ratio ..
#nevent1q…hsy0

2024-06-15 18:40:11

- reply

Let me put it this way - how long does it take for #fiat transactions to settle ? .. I mean really settle .. beyond IOUs :-)

2024-06-15 01:50:56

- reply

Isn't setting up bad incentives malice ?

2024-06-15 01:39:01

- reply

I hope physically .. but the idea that it was a social media generated pand mic and the mass cancel culture that followed .... and subsequent attention on free speech ( nostr , bsky , Twitter turmoil ) .. they sure have ..

2024-06-15 01:34:45

- reply

2000 - dot com bust and and subsequent rise of resilient internet ..
2010 - global financial meltdown and rise of #bitcoin
2020 - Global Pandemic and #nostr ..rise awaited ..

2024-06-15 01:24:50

- reply

I give you the name : noPhone :-)

2024-06-15 01:21:24

With around 1.8 million words, #Mahabharata remains the largest pool of #Sanskrit words to date. It is the longest poem ever scribed, in any language, old or new. To put it in perspective, it is about ten times the size of Iliad and Odyssey combined.
More than size, the proof of work is in the readership. Bhagvad #Gita - a part of sixth episode (Bhishama Parva) is the founding ideology of #Hinduism , #Jainism, #Buddhism, #Sikhism and countless more - and is the first written source of idea of #Karmyoga.

2024-06-14 07:34:16

Decentralised means public .. private is always personal .. isn't it ?
#nevent1q…ykn2

2024-06-10 03:06:08

- reply

No matter what you use - from SAP to Salesforce to opensource tools (that rarely work) - at the end you will download everything to excel .. or something like it .. So ..
If you are lazy and want some automations - take a look it at https://www.smartsheet.com/
I used it in two of my large SAP implementation programs and both places clients adopted the solution for their day to day business .. It is spreadsheets on steroids .. you will need bit of hand holding if you are not tech savvy .. they have a free option to try things out ...

2024-06-10 02:32:31

Being the first scribed mega narrative, `Mahabharata` was destined to become the first ever large data-set to train humans en-masse on text - a new communication protocol layered over extensive oratory skills. And a new way to store manifolds of lore.
>> With around 1.8 million words, Mahabharata is the biggest single pool of Sanskrit words to date. It is the longest poem ever written down, in any language, old or new. To put it in perspective, it is about ten times the size of Iliad and Odyssey combined.
Size was important to pass the minimum threshold for training text to human mind - a biological neural network evolved over millions of iterations. Words must be written in every possible context. New words were created to capture the finest of emotions, and subtleties of human behavior - and to capture that mysterious unexplained beyond mortal cognition. The language (`Sanskrit`) had an uncompromising syntax - to convey exact meaning in an unfettered written format - to make good for the lack of facial expressions and bodily gestures common in spoken sphere. But most importantly, it must be a narrative as addictively consuming as the reality itself - that once started, makes one crave for more ; and once completed it is never forgotten - a permanent layer of foundational thoughts (Sanskaras) - history !
Posted via Nostrudel.ninja
https://gita.shutri.com/thought.html

2024-06-09 16:47:03

- reply

Not sure I got the point ! - like what is the purpose ??

2024-06-09 16:43:45

- reply

Silent for three weeks now .. only writing here on #nostr .. or on a slate to communicate with my wife ...
Turned out my Dog gets right without a single word - spoken or written !

2024-06-09 16:41:23

- reply

do smaller ones (things) without people #Karma :-)

2024-06-09 16:36:45

This is how you sleep when you got 21 million #sats under your belt :-) Safe and secure ...
#nevent1q…ky49

2024-06-09 16:17:04

- reply

The presidential ( and parliamentary in India) may be the last ones to adopt pure electronic voting - but there are so many (not so consequential ) elections at the county and state level that can be dealt with #nostr voting ... school board representatives for example - city controllers ... props .. There is no need for such measures to wait for the paper ballot - .. Plus there is always an option to ratify electronic voting through a paper ballot later ..

2024-06-09 06:01:56

- reply

net net - there is no bigger thing in digital world than #bitcoin .. #nostr is next close .. may be more revolutionary for normies :-)

2024-06-09 05:56:59

- reply

Some cynics question the monetization thing - well there was no monetization for google or facebook - money finds its way where users spend their time ...
That said - the biggest client for nostr data is AI training .. nostr relays should sell the context - not content !

2024-06-09 05:53:56

- reply

One might think - #nostr being so cool , it must be hard for bringing new application on board - hard for a lone garage developer !
Well - the hardest part in application development is getting the users - coding is hard but devs can do it - they end up circling VCs and marketing types and hell lot of other shitty things when it comes to launching their apps ..
nostr makes this part easy - because just like data - users are also interoperable .. I can have five different social media clients to watch my notes in five different ways ... Since switching the clients is almost zero cost for users - they graciously try new applications .. it creates a virtuous cycle of #creativity ... which means all creative applications would automagically gravitate towards nostr ..

2024-06-09 05:39:05

#nostr is like USBC - charging and data transmission - it will supercharge every application it connects to !
It solves three basic needs of every application
- data storage
- social
- payments
The best part is all three of these layers are standardized - which is a mouthful - what it means to user (and developer) is you can access your data , social and payments content from any client ... with same log in and password ...
And that brings me to the lkiller point - you create and store your login and password - no one else .. and there is only one user ID and password needed for everything nostr compliant ..
You can sure create as many IDs as you want ... may be one for your dawg .. or for cat if you are a cat person ! Or for both - why not !

2024-06-08 21:43:02

- reply

Even after installing sophisticated tools , you would still download things in spreadsheets :-) So .. just be more diligent with spreadsheets .. OS doesn't matter ..

2024-06-08 16:03:45

- reply

For example ..if you take a look at my ( WIP) book .. https://gita.shutri.com ; each chapter is a markdown file ... on github .. mdBook is turning them into a book experience ..
I wish each of those markdowns lived as nostr notes on relays ..rather than being on centralized github .. but reader could get same book style experience..on the web or locally ..

2024-06-08 15:57:11

- reply

Sure ..let me write a long post on it .. will tag you .. ..
In nutshell - mdbook is a rust app that takes markdown files and turn them into a ( technical) book interface .. you can host it on github or wherever you wanna host the book on web .. or read locally ..
The way it works is , you provide it a summary file that has links to markdown files .. as chapters or sub chapters of the book ...
All we need to do is enable rust code to replace file links with nostr notes IDs .. since nostr notes are all in markdown , mdbook can take bunch of notes and show it as a professional looking book experience..
Just the start...

2024-06-08 15:45:38

- reply

There is no hurry ... nostr will automatically evolve into creativity..cuz thats there in the DNA ...
I need to learn bit of rust to convert mdBook into a #nostr client but I am getting too old to write code now :-)

2024-06-08 15:41:06

- reply

Exactly.. if there was a specific nostr client for writing the books ( say retrofit mdbook ) ..which is best in class .... suddenly you would attract hoards of writers .. add to that the nostr interoperability, zaps monetization features .. now you have a killer nostr app ..
Then there is a usecase for books libraries .. it goes on ..

2024-06-08 15:36:22

- reply

The bottomline is if you want creatives on your platform , you need to provide creative tools .. if you want news and sensation ..you will provide Twitter esq experience..

2024-06-08 15:34:05

- reply

That's true .. because you are taking social usecase to extreme .. marginal value diminishes ..

2024-06-08 15:32:38

- reply

Notes are good starting point ..but try writing a book through notes .. .

2024-06-08 15:31:25

- reply

That opens up creativity in creativity tools .. you may design a better interface than me and boom all my content is now visible through your interface ..

2024-06-08 15:30:08

- reply

Because other tools lock me in ..Adobe for example need me tied to their garden ..even gimp ..
Nostr creativity tools shall be interoperable ..accessible from any other interface ..presumably better interface ..

2024-06-08 15:27:56

- reply

Basically the tools to create stuff and store it on relays ..each artifact has an ID .. it is unique ..it can be zapped ..lots of avenues will open up when we start thinking of nostr as a creativity tool rather than a consumption system

2024-06-08 15:23:48

- reply

Nostr is a data layer below the creative content .. clients should focus on creativity tools.. music , long posts , templates , art .. there are ton of them in open source world that can be easily refitted ..
If the goal was only sending posts and comments , then what is the value add ? Social is good to test the concept..it should not be the end goal ..

2024-06-08 15:15:53

- reply

This is what nostr interface should be like ..a creativity tool ..social media interface seems overdone ..

2024-06-08 15:10:44

- reply

Lol ..they are actually right ..they value your privacy because they are going to sell it for a value $$$ ..

2024-06-08 13:46:27

- reply

What if #nostr was by default offline and sharing was an option - for notes at least one month old .. #proofOfAge :-)

2024-06-08 13:42:41

For normal people (#normies as they are called in some circles :-) - the privacy is like a toilet - everyone knows what I am doing there but no one wants to know how ..
For #anarchists - privacy is like a mask - they wanna pee in public spaces without anyone holding them responsible - showing them the way to toilet ..
There is no #system without #regulation .. in fact the number 21 Million is a #bitcoin regulation ..

2024-06-05 10:31:09

#Bitcoin is the king of digital commodities..
#gold is king of physical ones ..
Two sides of same lion :-)
https://image.nostr.build/87d38f79db207e4364628b9ab9b243b99aa3a0f9cd1878795d942a13b2b88154.jpg

2024-05-31 01:33:19

maps are the biggest innovation of physical world ..

2024-05-29 23:24:42

It takes many clients to get the feel of #nostr

2024-05-27 01:08:38

#Japan is a live volcano of traditions where modern tech lava is erupting fresh .. fast and furious.. #future is here

2024-05-26 23:52:01

2024-05-26 10:46:08

- reply

You said it ..
Here is the most useful #Apple device ..
Intel based Air (2013) running #Ubuntu 18
https://image.nostr.build/ad05ef45395cc80ce2c96ae62d6bb0eb440ac2fd4f09c8fbd335347d04fd649e.jpg

2024-05-26 10:29:59

Introduction of M4 on #iPad is a sign #machintosh is old .. probably dead ..

2024-05-24 04:28:55

- reply

No I meant #Sats being accepted everywhere ( any sats wallet) ..a Suica like experience but globally ..

2024-05-22 18:43:44

- reply

There are two points here
- I don't know about other blockchains but Bitcoin is public by design . Because on Bitcoin network , most of the transactions would be between big wealth funds , nation states , corporations etc .. the fees will make it impractical for me to transact on Bitcoin network . These big transactions must be in public eye .. that is a feature NOT a down side .
- as regards to tax , KYC or not , Bitcoin is an asset . We must pay the taxes as per the legal requirements just the way we pay taxes when we sell real estate or stocks . I am sure you are not promoting tax evasion. Are you ?

2024-05-21 07:09:07

Give #milk to cat , dog , horse , tiger , lion, snake ..even a cow .. they will drink happily - no questions asked ..
My dogs run away if someone offers them a beer can to smell .. try with yours :-)
Sometimes you don't need to prove through experiments - the proof is in the experience..
#nevent1q…v9g3

2024-05-21 04:13:52

For the longest time , I had difficulty understanding what is different in #lightning wallet verses a #Bitcoin wallet ..
Why don't they just call them #Sats wallet verses #btc wallet .. Bitcoiners have a way to confuse common people :-)
#askNostr

2024-05-21 04:09:50

Heading over to #Japan for the first time and wondering if there was a #Sats wallet like their Suica cards ..
Life could be so easy ..

2024-05-19 20:54:57

If your boat capsized mid sea .. with no land in sight .. only thing to care for is breath 🫁..
The universe is an infinite ocean .. there is no where to go ..no place to reach even if you wished to .... the reason is to breathe ..
#inhaleNostr ..

2024-05-19 06:21:00

- reply

after much thinking my conclusion is custody is for next generation.. most of my gen and older would Max use ETFs .. only few fifty plus have the tenacity to learn , understand and maintain self custody .. even those who do , will never go full throttle because risk appetite diminishes with age .. most of us would be stuck in ETFs or exchanges at best .. but it is not a bad thing , at least youngsters can own their money and it sure puts a check on unhinged printer :-)

2024-05-15 17:51:44

- reply

Here is how a lawyer without open source spirit might look at it :-)
Open Source code is free - thus it is a partner in the any tool built on it or usage there of ! Notwithstanding the terms of self issued licence(s) which states no warranty or support , by virtue of it being free , it is a party because ownership didn't transfer through a financial transaction ..
A car is fully paid , and so is a camera - thus the manufacturer is absolved of any further usage by new owner .. ownership is legally transferred.

2024-05-15 05:01:44

- reply

Monero is a shitcoin leavering up Privacy card .. huh

2024-05-13 21:27:16

- reply

" ruined anyone with a different opinion " ..
Is it okay for me to have a different opinion ?

2024-05-13 21:18:26

- reply

But not everyone went to Brazil .. your were luckey ..

2024-05-13 07:33:24

- reply

That said - the properties of nostr are very useful for developers .. so you will see lots and lots of new developers choosing nostr as their only platform for creation - that will automatically create an influx of new users over the long arc ..

2024-05-13 07:28:15

- reply

People are very good at understanding value - and even better at parsing the fluff they don't care about - like decentralized nature or big tech overreach etc. These things concern big voices or developers - not normal users .
The only thing that is helpful to normal users (so far) is #nostr offers a single sign on - but that becomes useful only when there is more to nostr than pure social or social-esq apps .. spreadsheets , documents , commerce , travel , research , dating , gambling .. which means nostr must be a creators' tool before it becomes consumers'
Thus there is no good reason to promote it to end users as of now .. if you build good they will come ..

2024-05-13 06:51:07

- reply

"before it is taxed to hell and the regulators become more entrenched"
This is where power of democracy comes into play . For a term , yes it can be heavily taxed - even that will be challenged in court of law . But next term will be tough for such regulations because bitcoin is good for the state , for the economy and for the people . The way I see it, it is as if people are opting against uncontrolled printer . In a way it is a powerful vote for getting back to fiscal discipline.

2024-05-12 02:51:49

- reply

I really applaud your foresight , I just can't believe the conspiracy theories ..
As for your point on state and church I don't seem to understand what is the grand plan here ? Are you saying you can live without state (or faith for that matter?) .. You may be a monk , I am not ! And fortunately , I dont have any such personal experiences that make me turn faithless - God has been kind and state has been good so far .. minor issues are always there in any system and we are supposed to improve the system ..
Btw - if we dont trust the collective than we can't even trust our own mind - a collective of 100 trillion cells .. so

2024-05-12 02:45:29

- reply

And the funny thing is bitcoin is ethically and legally allowed - and it is permission-less -- it is the best so far .. at least the ones I know of ..

2024-05-12 02:40:58

- reply

I think the right order is Ethical -> Legal -> Permissionless
There are many permissionless things that no one will indulge in becuase they are either unethical or illegal . For example "Stealing" is permissionless but no one does it cuz it is neither ethical nor Legal ..
That said - I do agree I don't understand bitcoin as much as you might be, but I sure know that Ethical and Legal aspects are human-centric .. software (or tools) can't be a proxy for these ..

2024-05-11 09:29:05

- reply

If you read the history of politics , what we have today ..in last 30 to 50 years is the best we have ever seen .. the old days were really bad .. literally the game of thrones ..
The current problem is NOT as much govs as the big tech .. or big business driving the govs .. but then again there will always be a new equilibrium found across corporations .. they will have conflicting interests and thus govs shall become free ..
As for Samourai or Wasabi , this is not even a blip on the timescale .. such things are bound to happen for btc to find it course .. all I can say that collective and law of land is paramount .. there is no way to bypass the political process - I mean , we can't even ignore politics with in btc community ..

2024-05-11 09:19:29

- reply

yet ..it is the best we have unless the grand plan is to go back to stone age .. not saying we should not try a better form of governance .. but who is there to articulate if we dint even show some commitment to collective ..
btw the social thread we are chatting on is a collective .. very few humans can live alone ..

2024-05-11 09:14:30

- reply

In the hindsight yes .. but when the sensational media was throwing stories after story , everyone was scared .. I certainly dint think that somehow govs were coordinating to spread fear .. it happened ..and it was sure a shitshow .. things to learn

2024-05-11 07:59:12

- reply

A little research on the reference to libbitcoin wiki you shared - as far as read - it is an alternative bitcoin client with its own agenda .. so references to their wiki might guide us on an alternative course ..
quote
Libbitcoin emerged as a protest against Bitcoin Core, which used to be under the political control of Gavin Andresen and some directors of the now-defunct Bitcoin Foundation. It's command-line only, it's cypherpunk, and it's a complete rewrite of the Bitcoin codebase that was initially started by Amir Taak
https://bitcoin-takeover.com/eric-voskuil-libbitcoin-bitcoin-culture/#:~:text=Libbitcoin%20emerged%20as%20a%20protest,initially%20started%20by%20Amir%20Taaki.

2024-05-11 07:43:38

- reply

The question really is "what we mean by government"? As per me , it is our chosen representatives .. If they are our representatives then why would they stop our freedom ? Bitcoin is free from last 15 years in USA and there is nothing stopping it .. that said , any organization must have room to improve - and that is the role of constituents ..
If we start believing collective is inherently bad than the problem is our own body is a collective of 30 trillions cells .. so ..the idea that govs all around the world are somehow out there to harm citizens is absurd.
As for North Korea - I am not an expert and have never been there .. media narratives are hard to believe in these days .. not long ago Russia was bad , suddenly it is not so bad !
As regards to permission less attribute - it is the property of the software .. it is NOT a political statement. Even that is a very big deal given almost all the software that we normally use is permissioned even if it government has no problem with it - try using office 365 ! .. Just because it is permissionless , doesn't mean the word "Illegal" lost it's meaning. Almost everything - physical or software - around us is legal but permissioned - property , access , work .. you name it .. permissionless has lot to serve with in the realm of legal.

2024-05-10 21:17:16

- reply

Why should one indulge in illegal behavior ?? If tomorrow a law passes declaring Bitcoin illegal to buy in USA , I would certainly not buy it .. That is not to say , that I don't have freedom to move to a bitcoin friendly state or use my vote to change the law of land ..
The problem is some people seem to feel that bitcoin is a proxy for political process .. it is NOT. We still and we will continue to live in a democracy ... we will still vote and elect our representatives to make laws for us and we will continue to abide by the laws ..
The role of #bitcoiner is to help propagate the favorable open and freedom loving public policy through legitimate process - not short circuit the right path !