Han Shan

Right. As I said, its a legitimate threat until we get to that phase.
It's another front of state KYC/AML laws designed to undermine bitcoins censorship resistant properties.
And they're being generally successful.

2024-06-25 16:06:43

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Until there is public, determined competition between nation states for domination of the mining space its a very real threat.
The US is *quite* adept at leveraging its position in even hostile jurisdictions. There is no place on earth that both 1,takes bitcoin seriously enough and 2,hates the US enough that miners can feel secure enough to bring large hash online there.
And of course, one jurisdiction isn't enough. We need many.
So tbh, it's stupid to dismiss that attack vector.
Sure you'll probably still be able to eventually get your tx mined.
But the network will NOT function as advertised.

2024-06-25 14:49:06

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you can also make the argument that bitcoin ASIC centralization undermines the purpose of defeating state actors and central banks

2024-06-23 23:00:09

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The monero community absolutely DOES NOT say that "supply soundness is a necessary tradeoff for CTs."
Because that isn't true.
Whst they say is "we offload supply soundness guarantees to the correctness of proof and signature constructions."
I just spend an hour or two providing you with information about the proofs and why it is *equally reasonable to trust them* as it is to trust the ECDSA proofs YOU ARE ALREADY TRUSTING.
In other words, I made effort to actually provide educational material and critical thinking about the issue.
But your willful ignorance is too much for me and you can have fun waving your maxi flag with a little spittle running down your chin.

2024-06-23 21:30:22

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You can always tell when a maxi has lost all actual fact-based argument.
Because they pull out a fiat chart of relative speculative value as if it was meaningful.

2024-06-23 21:28:44

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<sigh>
lol ok
You have no evidence your private key is the only key that can spend a utxo.
This property of bitcoin depends on the ECDSA encryption it uses being mathematically sound and the implementation being correctly coded
YOU *TRUST* THE BITCOIN COMMUNITY WHEN THEY TELL YOU THIS IS SO.
YOU ARE ALREADY RELYING ON CRYPTOGRAPHIC PRIMITIVES YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND.
YOU JUST REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE IT.

2024-06-23 20:52:51

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"I trust bitcoin because it's transparent and don't understand math"
i think we can safely disregard your opinion.

2024-06-23 20:51:38

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By the EXACT same logic
you cant trust ECDSA to ensure that only your private keys can spend your utxos.
But you do.
Your whole argument is just
"I trust Team Bitcoin when they say ECDSA is secure.
But I don't trust Team Monero when they say range proofs are secure.
I don't DYOR.
I don't verify.
I just follow the prevalent groupthink of the team I like."
Frankly, you're a sorryass Bitcoiner.

2024-06-23 17:38:50

maxis are racist against zero knowledge proofs

2024-06-23 06:16:19

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Pixel 6a with GrapheneOS

2024-06-23 05:54:13

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He is precisely correct.
A monero transaction must prove no its inputs and output equal zero to meet consensus agreements.
We can prove that without knowing the amounts involved because of zero knowledge proofs.
This isn't rocket science,you are already trusting more complicated maths using bitcoin.

2024-06-23 05:51:23

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Yall are incorrect that there is significantly more trust than you already put in bitcoin.
Range proofs have been around for a looong time and are well understood.

2024-06-23 05:48:18

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cryptographic primitives
in this case, range proofs.
https://eprint.iacr.org/2024/430

2024-06-23 05:46:04

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you audit the gettxoutsetinfo code yourself?
or do you *trust* the community to do it for you?

2024-06-23 00:17:54

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For one, Im willing to bet you have NEVER personally verified the BTC supply and just trust someone elses code to do it
And two, it's possible to mathematically prove that something is so, WITHOUT actually revealing what the factors are.
Like we can prove that the sum of the inputs and outputs of a tx are zero. Without showing the amounts.

2024-06-22 23:35:43

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In other words
yall are morons who don't understand you are ALREADY trusting cryptographic primitives and you dont need to be able to sum the utxo set on a napkin to have supply assurances.
Snowden is absolutely correct.

2024-06-22 22:21:53

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There are some Proof of Reserve schemes that people have been kicking around for a while. That would be hard proof that the mint has the BTC (or whatever).
Also Calle has this Proof of Liabilities scheme.
https://gist.github.com/callebtc/ed5228d1d8cbaade0104db5d1cf63939
Ideas... none of them are implemented anywhere yet as far as I know.

2024-06-22 21:28:55

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Protocol level privacy is the only solution.

2024-06-22 20:22:08

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This is true.
Except the part about social shaming.
Shame is good aktcually.

2024-06-22 20:21:25

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I agree abortion should not be uaed as birth control.
But disagree the state should regulate it.
It should simply be socially unacceptable. This is only possible by encouraging people (men and women both) to take personal responsibility and accept the consequences of their actions.

2024-06-22 20:08:58

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Isn't ecash the synthetic bitcoin that is used to suppress the price forever?
they just have to spin up the most credible mint and normies will go for it.
particularly since non credible mints will rug people.

2024-06-22 20:05:49

because everyone on LN is using their own node "like a real man" lmao
massive anon set
and receiver privacy is "possible and improving"
so impressive.
no doubt monero will go to zero any day now with such awesome privacy guarantees 😂
#nevent1q…5dkq

2024-06-22 20:01:24

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yawn
cool bro

2024-06-22 19:33:26

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You're promoting beta software and untried tech as privacy solutions.
LN privacy is a complicated issue and when you say "I use LN privately all the time"
you're obviously full of shit.

2024-06-22 19:06:29

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"privacy is coming" is the cope.
Ive been having these arguments for over 7 yrs and its always "privacy is coming."
There is nothing that comes close to monero privacy guarantees and that's a fact.
furthermore, if you do NOT have protocol level privacy there will ALWAYS be centralization/custodial tradeoffs.

2024-06-22 18:16:32

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There is no Zerolink CJ operational st the moment.
JM cjs have been unwound and wasabi sucks.
So no, there isnt a good CJ option atm.
Receiver privacy on LN is non existent and even sender privacy is subjective since LN can be highly centrlaized.
"proxy node" isnt a thing.
iow, there arent any tools on bitcoin that obfuscate the sender, receiver and amount.
agree with no-KYC though.
no KYC only 👍

2024-06-22 18:12:23

Maxis will straight up accuse you of being in monero for fiat "value"
and at the same time suggest compromising on decentralization and custody are reasonable tradeoffs.
the lack of self-examination is astounding.
#nevent1q…kckw

2024-06-22 18:07:39

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I hold at least as much bitcoin as I do monero.
and I'd be very happy to be all bitcoin if it offers the same functionality.
it doesnt. that's a simple fact.
"a little custodial risk is ok" is simple cope and a compromise of 1st principles.
Custodians can be shut down if they dont rug you, etc.
maybe instead of accusing others of being in for the NGU you should take a look in the mirror.

2024-06-22 17:51:29

Bitcoiners and the eternal "privacy is coming on L2"
smdh
the cope is coming from inside the house.
#nevent1q…ukgd

2024-06-22 17:46:23

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Cool
very serious "solution https://image.nostr.build/b4f4ec57dd0107a9fb544fbed1533560e337cb4e02bd4cd1a070ecdce6ec8116.jpg "

2024-06-22 17:34:44

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You need to make an coherent argument for a solution.
Are you trying to make a case for Mutiny being private LN payments?
Are you saying enuts is not custodial?
Do you know the point you are trying to make?

2024-06-22 17:21:43

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Atomic swaps are a thing. So no there is no risk.
And its nice to theorize about how great ecash will be when its not battle-tested.
As it stands, you have to immediately swap out to you own mint or to LN becasue we cant trust the mints.
All of your "solutions" have considerably more friction that just having a stack of monero you use for private payments.

2024-06-22 17:16:51

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I mean, really???
You're going to point to Liquid as a reasonable privacy tool? For real?
How long has Liquid existed? How long have the blocks been completely empty? It's a fucking ghost town?
Meanwhile Monero does 20-30k tx per day and you're telling me with a straight face that Liquid and custodial ecash are legit alternatives?
Its not the monero stans who refuse to see reality bro

2024-06-22 17:11:25

"I like bitcoin, buy my centralized custodial shitcoin"
#nevent1q…smn6

2024-06-22 17:09:45

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Name one. Ill wait.

2024-06-22 17:09:15

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both of those solutions are centralized and custodial. ok well, Liquid isn't custodial, you just need permission to peg out.
bitcoiners don't wabt to acknowledge this becasue their bags depend on compromising 1st principles for the sake of NGU.

2024-06-22 02:47:48

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There are no "privacy tools" on Bitcoin that do what Monero does.
And there has always been a complex ecosystem of various monetary instruments with different properties.
Maxis always emphasize "one coin to rule them all" because they want ngu.

2024-06-21 17:43:58

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Shildichat ftw

2024-06-17 21:13:21

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They also don't need to.
They just need to push normies into custodial wallets.

2024-06-16 06:09:53

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certainly unfollowed him for his dumb tribal opinions however

2024-06-16 05:46:08

IYKYK
https://nihilism.network/

2024-06-16 03:45:54

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I understand the tradeoffs bitcoin has made and its role in the evolution of the cypherpunk movement.
You're apparently just a braindead maxi repeating slogans you heard somewhere.
Bye.

2024-06-16 03:43:42

You cannot call yourself a Bitcoiner if you legitimately think this is a true statement.
Bitcoin was built by cypherpunks who understood tradeoffs and adversarial thinking.
It is the antithesis of maxi groupthink.
#nevent1q…z5g4

2024-06-16 03:40:41

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I'll repeat:
Retarded anti-intellectual bullshit tribalism
and you are not a cypherpunk or a legit Bitcoiner if you hold this view.

2024-06-16 03:35:53

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This is just elitist tribal BS.
There are no properties of monero that make it a shitcoin.

2024-06-14 20:48:03

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Obviously the risk of hidden supply inflation or rugpulls does not exist with self-custodied Monero.

2024-06-14 20:45:52

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Its literally right on their FAQ 🙄
do better
https://docs.cashu.space/faq
https://image.nostr.build/6c89b015b0d0fb88de6db01f77319718a28123024a098cb2ee07108c3add837a.jpg

2024-06-14 15:30:08

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The risk of using any custodial solution, Cashu included, is that the mint either inflates the supply or rugs you.

2024-06-14 03:15:00

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how is being custodial a safeguard?

2024-06-14 01:44:04

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The government will run mints.
Other criminals will also run mints.
Normies will use the government mints.
They will inflate the supply and we will basically have the exact situation as we do now.
The vast majority will use cucked centralized systems and small groups of principled people will take the time and effort to use real solutions.

2024-06-12 14:04:14

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Monero does 10% of BTC daily tx volume.
Everytime one of these big DNM goes aware that tx count drops a percent or two.
So how exactly is this condition not already fulfilled?

2024-06-12 03:06:12

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gotcha.
lack of forward secrecy is a big deal.

2024-06-11 20:20:23

@npub14sl…t5d6
On the latest Watchmen pod Evgeny from Simplex dissed Session messenger pretty hard,
saying they don't use double-ratchet encryption.
You're a big Session defender, whats the story here?

2024-06-10 19:13:08

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Thats a stupid thing to say.
All FOSS projects that aim to increase human freedom matter.

2024-06-10 16:19:11

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This is not exclusive to the bitcoin/nostr/LN space.

2024-06-10 12:30:59

Watch the movie "citizenfour"
about the Snowden leaks
#nevent1q…sq4x

2024-06-10 12:03:53

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I'm looking for her documentary on Assange now. Have you seen that one?

2024-06-10 11:54:57

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There's nothing for BTC now whirlpool is offline. Not that there will never be, but things look grim.
Loss of liquidity is an acceptable tradeoff since most "liquidity" is actually degen speculation.
Keep bitcoin cypherpunk.

2024-06-10 11:24:40

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This is why default privacy is critical.

2024-06-10 11:22:54

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that's true.
privacy is a very valuable tradeoff.
some would say indispensable.

2024-06-10 11:20:59

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just finished. so glad I got it, should be required viewing.

2024-06-10 09:58:50

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this is why confidential transactions and stealth addresses were proposed for Bitcoin from long ago.

2024-06-10 09:57:46

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There are already other systems in place that offer different tradeoffs.
Not that you asked, you just assumed they don't exist for some reason.
Whatt I'm doing is challenging yalls blanket acceptance that surveillance is normal and necessary.

2024-06-10 09:54:48

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You don't need to have perfect surveillance to ensure double spends dont happen smartypants.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-knowledge_proof

2024-06-10 08:52:57

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watching it right now.
it's like holy shit, never thought i could see the original hotel footage in Hong Kong

2024-06-10 08:17:50

Anyone seen the Snowden movie Citizenfour?
Worth a peek?

2024-06-10 07:38:17

Pretty good movie
#freeross https://image.nostr.build/bf6f548bc8dadc0c0da671590f292d0341b4db3930896cd5f573458b6ee79f7a.jpg

2024-06-10 06:55:31

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Sorry, that's insane and it's not how anything else works.
Its also means de facto surveillance because 99% of users are normies and will use the defaults.
But apparently its normal to believe we should all be seeing into each others bank accounts and transaction history now.
And somehow believe that won't erode censorship resistance.
smdh

2024-06-10 04:55:08

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https://image.nostr.build/c6bb4ae526652a45a163136b4a9bae3ca581d7254479ef5ecb703f88cae8c038.jpg

2024-06-10 04:22:42

only OG cyberpunka will get it.
https://image.nostr.build/2e684ea915c6240c0b1a3a24a32a102e34d0a5d4374b373994bc0216d4ed1c46.jpg

2024-06-10 03:54:41

It is bitcoiners that help push the narrative that lack of privacy is the default state.
#nevent1q…56cu

2024-06-09 22:59:00

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Oh.
You honestly think it's normal and good to see what other people do with their money.
Wow, nm.

2024-06-09 15:57:37

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Insane.
(that the BTC community considers it normal for this information to be publicly known and nobody sees a problem with it)

2024-06-09 05:24:02

fucking cypherpunk larps
#nevent1q…6upn

2024-06-09 05:14:55

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blackrock literally has a deal with coinbase to issue paper BTC
and you assholes are crowing about "defunding the state"
wake up

2024-06-04 09:35:10

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I mean
i guess I'd rather have the option than not...
but fr this is some serious shit and we need to be specific about the tradeoffs

2024-06-04 08:45:58

Adam Back cheering the new Wasabi release without any analysis kinda sums on the current state of bitcoin for me.
The new release is cool and I'm into it.
But it's a nuanced topic (how do we prevent coordinators from sybilling?) and he just blabs some random buzzwords.
not impressed.
https://image.nostr.build/41424c6541628be9bae72dac9afcfed582214dcfdfdb2a2bdf190c8aa7f28eb3.jpg

2024-06-04 04:30:55

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Also you're also clearly incorrect
there was *already a bug. Which was provably detected and patched before it was exploited.
So your fud of "monero can't detect any inflation bug" is already wrong.

2024-06-04 04:28:47

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Every tx proves that the sum of its inputs and outputs equals zero.
So the circulating supply is the coinbase outputs, which are transparent.

2024-06-02 23:32:13

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😂
(me crying)

2024-06-02 23:29:44

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I don't know how much of that tx volume is real economic activity.
and neither do you.
and nothing else is used more.

2024-06-02 23:28:12

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not really.
you acknowledge bitcoin is the best we got and nothing else existent now can do what it does.
but because you have very smart, very correct opinions it obviously has to be something else?
check yourself before you wreck yourself.

2024-06-02 16:38:56

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there are 100k transactions per day on the BTC blockchain.
you are setting arbitrary values on what qualifies as circulation.

2024-06-02 16:37:25

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yes.
bootstrapping is a very challenging part of growth.
and bitcoin has succeeded.
nothing else has yet.
you can quibble about whether its properties qualify as currency or an investment asset or whatever
but there are no other contenders.
(except monero)

2024-06-02 16:34:02

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kinda pedantic don't you think?
"you must purchase an investment asset with surplus currency.
currency may not be held.
currency may not be deflationary."
any other arbitrary rules you want to lay down?

2024-06-02 16:27:58

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the point was that there is no other crypto that has the property of "security".
which is a prerequisite to be a viable currency.

2024-06-02 16:23:57

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show me all these supposed superior alternatives.
all you're doing is repeating the same lines over and over without any substantiation.
people do also spend btc you know?

2024-06-02 16:19:11

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yawn
ok bro
just repeat your original thesis as if no discussion had happened.

2024-06-02 16:17:13

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I agree people need to also spend it.
and i dunno what you mean by the 1st sentence. tulips value is down.

2024-06-02 16:14:32

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it isn't wasted.
its good security. EVERYTHING else would be trivial to attack.
and the futility of attacking it makes it the ONLY viable alternative.

2024-06-02 16:11:54

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currency is *also meant to go be held.

2024-06-02 16:10:17

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"it cant be money if its purchasing power increases" is a retarded take, sorry.

2024-06-02 16:09:15

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also -1 for "appreciates in value"
fiat value is meaningless.
the idea is to replace the bullshit we have now with something it makes sense to measure with.
there is no other crypto that has the necessary properties.

2024-06-02 16:04:59

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so what?
its important than money be secure.
not that it be "technically more advanced."

2024-06-02 16:03:25

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i didnt say zaps proved btcs usefulness...?
plenty of people also buy btc because its good money and better than holding fiat.

2024-06-02 15:58:57

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I wasnt going to bring monero into it but i do agree with that.
i am btc and xmr only.
but complaints can be made about the "immutability"part.
the expense to ddos or reorg the monero chain is trivial for a nation-state.
bitcoin is far and away more secure.

2024-06-02 15:55:32

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"i just learned about bitcoin and I'm here to fix it"

2024-06-02 15:54:43

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correct.
except the part about nostr.
basically nobody is here for fiat gainz except a few randoms.

2024-06-02 15:53:49

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name one.
there arent any.

2024-06-02 15:51:28

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unless you're hoping for some quick usd gainz.
maybe regulators will bless some chain and use it for a fiat payment rail.
but that's got nothing to do with anything.